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Floppy disk portable music player

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Floppy disk portable music player

Post  JingleJoe on Tue Oct 21, 2008 7:17 pm

I have had the craziest idea, maybe it only seems so good right now because I'm drunk but I remember having it before I had drink today Very Happy

Okay my idea is an mp3 player that can play music from floppy disks!

I know I wouldn't be able to fit much more than one short song on each disk but I dont care, all my favorite old computer-made music is short and can be made into high quality mp3's and still only be about 700kb.
Anyway, might it be as simple as plugging an external usb floppy drive into an mp3 player?
Would there be any way to make it play MIDI files or MOD files?

I dont even know if this would be possible but it would be so cool to lug around a floppy disk drive and a bunch of fd's and periodically eject them and insert a new one to play the next track! Very Happy

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Re: Floppy disk portable music player

Post  HAC on Tue Oct 21, 2008 7:36 pm

Plugging a USB floppy into a generic mp3 player PROBABLY won't work. The drive won't be recognized, and in any event the mp3 player would be most likeley unable to provide suffcient current to operate the drive. MP3 Players generally lacks the EHCI controller that polls and then recognizes a USB device by class, therefore its unlikely it will be able to act as a USB host. This assumes, of course, a box-of-rocks dumb mp3 device.
An extension to USB called USB On-The-Go allows a single port to act as either a host or a device chosen by which end of the cable plugs into the socket on the unit. Even after the cable is hooked up and the units are talking, the two units may "swap" ends under program control. This facility targets units such as PDAs where the USB link might connect to a PC's host port as a device in one instance, yet connect as a host itself to a keyboard and mouse device in another instance.
It might be possible to use a PDA type of mp3 player or device that has host capablilites to do this. You might need to code a driver, and there is still the power problem..

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Re: Floppy disk portable music player

Post  Siliconous Skumins on Tue Oct 21, 2008 8:03 pm

Yes, this is doable...sort of...but may be quite a bit harder than you are expecting. Floppy drives are VERY difficult to interface directly, and I doubt many MP3 player have the needed drivers or BIOS instructions to support a floppy drive. However if you are willing to forget about MP3 encoding, and willing to use good old analogue recordings, then you can fit a LOT more tunes onto a standard floppy disk than you might think!

This is something I played around with a number of years ago. Basically you can wire a floppy drive to control the disk motor and read/write head quite easily. If you then breakout the wires from the read/write head, you can wire them directly into the circuit board of a common cheap walkman style personal cassette player (in the same place that the tape head would be connected - they are basically the same thing). you now have a walkman that uses a disk instead of a linear tape. Wink

It's a little more involved than that, but it's the basic idea.


The only problems with the ammount of recording you can fit on a disk, is down to the way the drive head moves in fairly large steps (which is something I was never able to solve - though more options exsist now) and the physical size of the read/write head - basically, the smaller it is, the more you can fit. It may be possible to use a read/write head from an OLD hard drive (something like a 20 or 40MB - yes Megabyte...) which is MUCH smaller. Newer hard drives will probably be of no real use, as the heads are far to small and need to be in incredibly close proximity to the disk surface (the gap is smaller than a single particle of smoke!).

I did get this to sortof work (it wasn't something I spent a lot of time on, was just for the hell of it), but I don't really know what length of recording time you would get from a standard floppy drive head setup.......that issue never really came up with the bodged together stuff I was using. Laughing

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Re: Floppy disk portable music player

Post  JingleJoe on Tue Oct 21, 2008 8:29 pm

HAC wrote: there is still the power problem..
Cheers
Harold
I was thinking of finding one with an external power adaptor and then hooking up a load of batteries, so I have a big power supply to lug around too Very Happy

Siliconous Skumins wrote:
This is something I played around with a number of years ago. Basically you can wire a floppy drive to control the disk motor and read/write head quite easily. If you then breakout the wires from the read/write head, you can wire them directly into the circuit board of a common cheap walkman style personal cassette player (in the same place that the tape head would be connected - they are basically the same thing). you now have a walkman that uses a disk instead of a linear tape. Wink

It's a little more involved than that, but it's the basic idea.
Holy mother of brass that sounds perfect! Tell me what more is involved!

Siliconous Skumins wrote:
(something like a 20 or 40MB - yes Megabyte...)
I have some 120mb floppy disks but not the appropriate drive to use them with Laughing

by the by:
Siliconous Skumins wrote: use good old analogue recordings, then you can fit a LOT more tunes onto a standard floppy disk than you might think!
How would one go about getting an analogue recording to a floppy? I'm willing to use whatever file format or music medium I have to!



This has all been highly interesting Smile thanks very much guys, any further more detailed input would be greatly apreciated Very Happy

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Re: Floppy disk portable music player

Post  Siliconous Skumins on Tue Oct 21, 2008 10:02 pm

JingleJoe wrote:
Siliconous Skumins wrote:
(something like a 20 or 40MB - yes Megabyte...)
I have some 120mb floppy disks but not the appropriate drive to use them with Laughing

Actually, the bog standard floppy disk is capable of storing hundreds of Megabytes of data - it's only the existing drives that are unable to do so. I think it was Sony who developed a 120Mb floppy drive using standard 1.44Mb floppies, and had plans for drives of higher capacities - sadly nothing really became of these. Standard 1.44Mb floppy disks have also been used as cheap recording media for MIDI instuments, digital cameras and even a video camera that could store about 45mins per disk...though with the exception of the MIDI instrument use, non have ever made it to market as a succsess.



The analogue recording to the floppy will be the same as you would record an audio tape - it's really a tape recorder that uses a floppy disk instead of tape, so bung a disk in and press "record". Wink

The main problem to sort out for the walkman diskdrive, is getting the drive head to advance smoothly as the disk revolves (think of the tracks on a vinyl record...). The floppy drive doesn't make a smooth transition down the disk surface in a single track, instead it uses multiple tracks and 'jumps' between them. This is the issue I was never able to solve at the time (due to the 1.2 degree stepper motor used for the head mechanism).
However, there are two possible easy answers to this: replace the stepper motor on the head, with a geared down motor at a constant speed (the tape motor from the walkman would be ideal for this). Or modify the existing stepper motor system used, and possibly monitoring the position of the the disc to allow the track stepping to take place at exactly the right moment, to avoid interuption.

You should be able to get suitable small gears from an old clock or watch (it doesnt have to be accurate, as long as it's geared low the motor can then be adjusted to suit), and by varying the speed of the motor, you can experiment with an increase or decrease in the track gap width to find something that works well.


I was able to bodge it enough to use the existing stepper motor, but it often caused the sound to skip and usually it would jump out of sync if it advanced too soon. It was a pretty basic setup I had to work with - think I used a magnet and reed switch to advance the head to the next track.... Shocked
Mind you, I did this when I was about 11 year old - 20 years later and I can fix these problems now. Laughing

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Re: Floppy disk portable music player

Post  HAC on Tue Oct 21, 2008 10:54 pm

I remember way back when, went to an IBM seminar on the future of magentic storage, and it was suggsedt that the theroetical max for the standard 3.5" floppy was in the range of 200-250MB. Its not just the track and block size, but bit density. After a certain point, you can end up with a phenonon called "bit flipping", which can happen on thin oxide magnetic media once you hit a high enough density. You need to increase the magnetic field strength and that can cause some issues if one has a "weak bit" caused by uneven oxide layering.. I know that Sony introduced the HFD format in 1998, which claimed 200MB for a 3.5" format floppy..
This is one of the inherent limiting factors to any flexible magentic media (floppies, tape, etc). You can get around this to some degree by increasing the size of the media, and with really good hardware error correction schemes..
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Re: Floppy disk portable music player

Post  JingleJoe on Tue Oct 21, 2008 11:23 pm

Looks like I'm going to have to do some experimenting Very Happy now to try and find some floppy disk drives and cassette players for free *rubs hands together*
But SS, will the wiring be pretty obvious with a little googling to find out which part of the cassete player/floppy drive is which? I know what the magnetic head thingy looks like but I wouldn't know which is which if there were two one for writing and one for reading.

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Re: Floppy disk portable music player

Post  Dandeliondream on Tue Oct 21, 2008 11:28 pm

It is very weird to see you post about being drunk when in the USA we can not drink till 21.
good luck with your creation.

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Re: Floppy disk portable music player

Post  JingleJoe on Tue Oct 21, 2008 11:29 pm

Dandeliondream wrote:It is very weird to see you post about being drunk when in the USA we can not drink till 21.
good luck with your creation.

cheers
Dandelion
You've never heard of underage drinking Wink? But even so I am of age here Very Happy hahahaha!

(man that was a fast de-rail Neutral)

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Re: Floppy disk portable music player

Post  Dandeliondream on Wed Oct 22, 2008 2:49 am

JingleJoe wrote:
Dandeliondream wrote:It is very weird to see you post about being drunk when in the USA we can not drink till 21.
good luck with your creation.
You've never heard of underage drinking Wink? But even so I am of age here Very Happy hahahaha!

(man that was a fast de-rail Neutral)

I know about all that , people were talking about that kind of thing on BG,but it is still weird for me.
if you came to the USA would you be able to drink if you were on vacation?
or would I be able to drink out thair?
THIs iS All VeRrY sTrAnGe.

cheers
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Re: Floppy disk portable music player

Post  HAC on Wed Oct 22, 2008 3:02 am

Actually,the US National Minimum Drinking Age Act of 1984 required all states to raise their minimum purchase and public possession of alcohol age to 21. Its not the drinking that's illegal. States that refused to do so, would have federal highway funding uct.
Up here in Canada, legal drinking age varies by province.

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Re: Floppy disk portable music player

Post  JingleJoe on Wed Oct 22, 2008 3:42 am

I'm acctually proud of this topic de-rail, I dont think you could de-rail a thread un-intentionally, so quickly, to a topic so far from the original without trying to:
Floppy disk drive music players and magnetic data storage to drinking and the legal drinking age differences between different places Very Happy

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Re: Floppy disk portable music player

Post  Dandeliondream on Wed Oct 22, 2008 4:52 am

Sorry,I did not mean to de-rail your topic.
I just trail off some times.........Sorry.
I dont have a floppy disk drive,but I have floppy disks Rolling Eyes I will have to find one.
I dont think I can make anything like your plan.
Good luck.

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Re: Floppy disk portable music player

Post  Siliconous Skumins on Wed Oct 22, 2008 4:59 am

JingleJoe wrote:But SS, will the wiring be pretty obvious with a little googling to find out which part of the cassete player/floppy drive is which? I know what the magnetic head thingy looks like but I wouldn't know which is which if there were two one for writing and one for reading.

Pretty much yeah. There isn't actually that much to wire up, all you need to do is swap the tape head connections over to the disk head (you may have to experiment to find out which is the read / write connections of the the head - but there isn't that many to choose from), then a simple trick to make the disk motor spin up (shorting a couple of pins on the 30pin floppy cable connector).....that's basically it.

Like I said the only challenge will be to get the disk head to move smoothly, but that shouldn't be too much of an issue.

One thing to note however, is that floppy drives are double sided, so the drive will have TWO heads (one either side of the disk) - but the tape player will only be able to use one at a time. It should be possible to simply wire a switch to swap between sides of the disk, but I'm not sure if you will be able to record to both sides. Reason being that you will be changing the way the tracks work, so chances are you will overwrite the other side's track. Worth trying anyway.

If you need any help identifying what bits are what, I'm sure I will be able to help out. Smile


Of course, failing all that there is always this option:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=X4SCSGRVAQE&feature=related

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Re: Floppy disk portable music player

Post  Zwack on Wed Oct 22, 2008 5:01 pm

Dandeliondream wrote:
JingleJoe wrote:
Dandeliondream wrote:It is very weird to see you post about being drunk when in the USA we can not drink till 21.
good luck with your creation.
You've never heard of underage drinking Wink? But even so I am of age here Very Happy hahahaha!

(man that was a fast de-rail Neutral)

I know about all that , people were talking about that kind of thing on BG,but it is still weird for me.
if you came to the USA would you be able to drink if you were on vacation?
or would I be able to drink out thair?
THIs iS All VeRrY sTrAnGe.

cheers
Dandelion

No, it's the laws in the place that you are that apply. So a British citizen of age 18 would not be able to drink in a bar in the US. However an American of 18 would be able to drink in an English Pub.

In Scotland it's 16 if you are drinking unfortified wine or beer with a meal.

Z.

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Re: Floppy disk portable music player

Post  Siliconous Skumins on Wed Oct 22, 2008 7:05 pm

I've just be having a play about with an old floppy drive frm my junk pile, and I've noticed a couple of issues I'd forgotten about.
First off is the slight issue of the spindle motor's speed, it rotates at about 360RPM.....which doesn't help to fit a lot of audio on a limited size disk. This isn't too hard to fix, but it does add another step to be worked out.

Another issue is the need to keep an accurate pace on the drive head, and if it doesn't start the track in exactly the right place at the begining of the disk, it will quickly lose sync with the audio track. Again, not too dificult to sort out, but will require some thinking about.

The other issue is that I forgot about the fact that tape heads have two seperate heads for the left and right audio tracks - floppy drives don't.... They do however have two sides, and two heads per disk, so all is not be lost just yet.


All that got me to thinking about the digital route again, MP3 would solve all those issues. That's when I had an idea - what about gutting a floppy drive, adding the guts of a cheap MP3 player (one that can use some form of seperate flash memory storage - SD cards, USB flash drive, etc), then modifying a floppy disk to hold the flash storage chip! (the floppy is just big enough to hold common flash storage devices inside) The flash device contacts can be hidden behind the floppy disk's metal sliding shield, this slides back as it enters the drive. So from the outside it will look completely standard.
The floppy disk is inserted into the floppy drive, the contacts of the flash storage device line up with the connector on the MP3 player and plug-in as normal, then the player is used in the normal way. Perfect - changing songs is as easy as ejecting the "disk" and sliding in a new one, and it still will look like a bog standard floppy drive and disk. Smile

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Re: Floppy disk portable music player

Post  JingleJoe on Wed Oct 22, 2008 7:30 pm

Thats a good idea SS Smile it wouldnt quite be the same but I might have to resort to that Razz

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Re: Floppy disk portable music player

Post  Siliconous Skumins on Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:04 pm

There are actually a number of cheap MP3 kits that would be ideal for this project, such as the hardware used for this project:
http://www.ladyada.net/make/minty/

The idea of using the floppy disk to hold music is still on the cards, but it's getting a little more complicated - and I'm not sure how much you want to have to start fabricating bits...

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Re: Floppy disk portable music player

Post  JingleJoe on Thu Oct 23, 2008 2:55 am

Siliconous Skumins wrote: I'm not sure how much you want to have to start fabricating bits...

SS
What kind of bits?

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Re: Floppy disk portable music player

Post  Siliconous Skumins on Thu Oct 23, 2008 11:27 am

JingleJoe wrote:
Siliconous Skumins wrote: I'm not sure how much you want to have to start fabricating bits...

SS
What kind of bits?

Actually, that may not be the case afterall..... Been doing a little thinking about this, it may be possible to use the disk drive machanism, mostly 'as is'. Assuming I can figure out a way to change the spindle motor speed.....and possibly convert it from CAV to CLV, to increase the ammount that can be recorded per disk (at the stock speed, you would probably get around 30 seconds or less...). Cassette tapes move at 4.76 cm/s, and I will need to get somewhere close to that speed, though a little slower should be OK.

Don't suppose I could possibly interest you in lugging around a 51/4" or even an 8" floppy drive, could I? The extra space on the disk would allow for a much greater recording time... Razz

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Re: Floppy disk portable music player

Post  JingleJoe on Thu Oct 23, 2008 2:56 pm

I would be interested in that Smile but I dont have those big disks nor do I have thier corresponding drives, but any floppy drive will do, the bigger ones have more retro cool points too Wink

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Re: Floppy disk portable music player

Post  HAC on Thu Oct 23, 2008 7:31 pm

SS[/quote]


Don't suppose I could possibly interest you in lugging around a 51/4" or even an 8" floppy drive, could I? The extra space on the disk would allow for a much greater recording time... Razz

SS[/quote]

The old 8" floppy was designed to be a low density, high readablility medium. The design was introduced in 1971 by IBM, and had as a formatted capacity of 79.7KB.
(IBM 23FD was the model). The main use for these floppies was as the microcode load for devices such as 3270 controllers and some early DASD controllers.
The low density allowed for "large" bit tracks, and that increased the likelihood of a "correct" read in adverse conditions (dust, vibration, heat, etc.).
I can remember using these and creating custom load disks for equipment back in my IT early days in the 1970's
Later incarnations of the 8" floppy had high capacites, but even the last model introduced in 1977 (if I remember correctly) had a max capacity of 1.2MB if formatted to FAT, and 980K if formatted in a CP/M format.
It wasn't just the head size that kept tehse large format floppies at low capacity, the oxide film was not capable of higher bit densities, I can remember using magnetic tape developing fluid on one of tehse, and you could see the bit pattern with the naked eye. (tape developer was a suspension of very fine iron particles in alcohol, putting it on a piece of mag tape , the alcohol woudl evaporate, leaving the iron dust to adhere to the magnetized bits of tape. It was a diagnostic tool, in that you could check stuff like the inter-block gap on tape without the need for an oscilliscope hooked up to the drive electronics..)

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Re: Floppy disk portable music player

Post  TehZorch on Fri Oct 24, 2008 2:40 am

I would LOVE to see a 5 1/4" MP3 player - You would have to compress the heck out of the file just to get one song on a disk lol

And HAC, once again, your technical knowledge astounds me!
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Re: Floppy disk portable music player

Post  Siliconous Skumins on Fri Oct 24, 2008 9:52 am

TehZorch wrote:I would LOVE to see a 5 1/4" MP3 player - You would have to compress the heck out of the file just to get one song on a disk lol

Actually, it would be easier to use a 5 1/4" disk - the extra pysical size of the disc media would allow the use of a smaller r/w head, such as that found on the 3.5" floppy drive. That means you effectivly increase the the storage space, and you could probably get around 15 minutes or more, of MP3 playback. Wink However, as HAC points out, the disc media isn't up to it (analogue audio is maybe another matter though).


Mind you, you could always turn the flopy disc into a mini gramaphone record.... Computing steampunk style! Laughing

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Re: Floppy disk portable music player

Post  dj_nme on Sat Oct 25, 2008 5:23 pm

Maybe not a floppy disc, but there is a Gakken kit to construct a primitive recording Emile Berliner Gramophone which uses 3.5" plastic discs to record onto.
It may be possible to re-task an old FDD into a playback unit for these discs, but you'd essentially be rebuilding the drive from the ground up.

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