Current State of BG - actions in progress

I am posting this summary and status here, and will be updating both the BG page
and here in case BG goes down again

from
http://brassgoggles.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,51232

it is litereally cut & paste  "print version" text only from BG.

============================================================================

The Steampunk Forum at Brass Goggles
Non-Steampunk => The Engine Room => Topic started by: proteus on August 10, 2020, 06:20:37 pm

--------------------------------------------------Title: New admin needed
Post by: proteus on August 10, 2020, 06:20:37 pm
I hate writing this post, but I can't put it off any longer -- I need someone to take over the hosting and administration of BG.

There are long-winded reasons I could go into, but suffice it to say that my personal situation no longer permits me to spend adequate time doing the administration that BG needs and deserves. I've been keeping things patched as best I can, but that's all I've been able to manage.

To replace me, you'd need to arrange for:

   A hosting service that's capable of handling the traffic and attacks that BG endures as one of the top half-million sites in the world
   A domain registrar (we use Namecheap now, that's fine but I'd want to transfer the domain ownership to the new admin)
   Taking over or replacing the Google Apps account that's used for site email
   Taking over the PayPal that's used for donations


I can assist with migrating the site to a new home, or with handing over credentials and billing for the current ISP.

I need a volunteer who's willing to take this on. If I can't find a home for this by the end of 2020, I'll need to put the forum in archive mode for safety reasons, since I won't be able to adequately administer a live site. In archive mode, the forum would be read-only. I obviously don't want it to come to that.

If you'd like to volunteer for this, please use this thread.

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: von Corax on August 11, 2020, 10:51:38 am
I'd be thrilled to help out, but I doubt I have the financial wherewithal to go it alone.

What sort of time and money commitment are we talking about here?

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: J. Wilhelm on August 11, 2020, 06:43:35 pm
Any future solution should not just be under a single pair of hands, in my opinion. Since I'm not an expert on IT, and I've never been an administrator, it's uncharted territory for me. Howeve,  I've long advocated for a platform with advertising to allow for a more autonomous operation of the site, this based on my experience at the Steampunk Mexico forum, and many other newer fora (during the "Latin American Explosion" in the first years of the last decade).

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: Madasasteamfish on August 11, 2020, 08:09:32 pm
I agree with the Admiral. It would be beneficial to have a team of (at least 2) admins rather than a single individual taking on sole responsibility to avoid the problems we've experienced when Proteus has been unavailable.

If we're going to appoint an admin from within the mod team it might be appropriate to consider appointing another mod or two to help support the smooth running of BG.

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: von Corax on August 13, 2020, 11:57:13 am
I have some experience as a sysadmin (five years or so wrangling an IBM System/36 with around 100 workstations connected, and two years running Unisys MAPPER installations), and I agree we need to put together a team. If memory serves, back in the day both S.Sprocket and HAC were able to cover proteus.

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: proteus on August 15, 2020, 05:21:47 am
Quote from: von Corax on August 11, 2020, 10:51:38 am
I'd be thrilled to help out, but I doubt I have the financial wherewithal to go it alone.

What sort of time and money commitment are we talking about here?

I've trimmed things down as much as possible, so with the current host, it's $65 monthly for hosting

In terms of time, it depends. Keeping the lights on is really just patching; most of that is automated, though it pays to check in and make sure things are smooth. That's only an hour or so a month and could probably be improved with some effort up front.

But there are a bunch of improvements needed too, so if you're taking those on, it'll depend how comfortable you are with that work and the bits and bobs that run the forum.

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: proteus on August 15, 2020, 05:26:56 am
Quote from: J. Wilhelm on August 11, 2020, 06:43:35 pm
Any future solution should not just be under a single pair of hands, in my opinion. Since I'm not an expert on IT, and I've never been an administrator, it's uncharted territory for me. Howeve,  I've long advocated for a platform with advertising to allow for a more autonomous operation of the site, this based on my experience at the Steampunk Mexico forum, and many other newer fora (during the "Latin American Explosion" in the first years of the last decade).

A team would be fine, but someone should really be the point person.

As for ad support, I made a promise to TinkerGirl that I wouldn't consider ads unless the forum wasn't sustainable without them. There's no legal structure to take those payments either, FWIW. And managing ads for safety and appropriateness shouldn't be underestimated.

I suggest if the option is seriously considered, it should be done only after open consultation with the membership. After all, ads generally mean trading personal privacy for the benefit of the service, which is not a great model.

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: Deimos on August 15, 2020, 11:30:46 am
I belong to a woodworking forum that for years was free to use.  You would register and that was it.  
It finally went to a subscription mode because of the cost of maintaining the forum or infrastructure or whatever it is called (You can readily see how technically savvy I am  :.)

If a revenue stream is finally required to keep BG running, I would rather use a subscription model than have ads.
Currently donations are just that...voluntary (and I donate monthly).
But going to a subscription model (say $2-3 per month with a discount if the subscription is paid annually) shouldn't be too onerous.
The thought of ads and banners on this site just turns my stomach  

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: Madasasteamfish on August 15, 2020, 12:58:12 pm
I agree with the idea of subscriptions based service over ads if a dedicated revenue stream is required to keep the lights on and things running (although we should probably ask the membership before we move to that model).

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: SeVeNeVeS on August 15, 2020, 04:32:20 pm
On average how much money do the donations via paypal to BG make a month?

Are spare goggles forum and the blog included in the 65 bucks a month or are they a separate server deal?

Does a new admin have to handle all 3?

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: J. Wilhelm on August 15, 2020, 07:34:09 pm
Quote from: SeVeNeVeS on August 15, 2020, 04:32:20 pm
On average how much money do the donations via paypal to BG make a month?

Are spare goggles forum and the blog included in the 65 bucks a month or are they a separate server deal?

Does a new admin have to handle all 3?

I thought sparegoggles was not only separate, but self sustaining...

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: von Corax on August 16, 2020, 04:13:10 am
Quote from: J. Wilhelm on August 15, 2020, 07:34:09 pm
Quote from: SeVeNeVeS on August 15, 2020, 04:32:20 pm
On average how much money do the donations via paypal to BG make a month?

Are spare goggles forum and the blog included in the 65 bucks a month or are they a separate server deal?

Does a new admin have to handle all 3?

I thought sparegoggles was not only separate, but self sustaining...
Spare Goggles is an independent, ad-supported site that was set up by (I think) Pheobsky (who has since disappeared, and so no new SG memberships are being approved.)

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: J. Wilhelm on August 17, 2020, 06:14:46 am
Quote from: Madasasteamfish on August 15, 2020, 12:58:12 pm
I agree with the idea of subscriptions based service over ads if a dedicated revenue stream is required to keep the lights on and things running (although we should probably ask the membership before we move to that model).

Exactly. Put it to a vote after comparing to ad supported sites - just look at sparegoggles.forumotion.net!

I know ads are unpalatable, but we must be practical about this. What ads are we afraid of? It's not like we're moving to Facebook... With all the stuff that is happening you never know.

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: Deimos on August 17, 2020, 09:47:47 am
OK...so let's say we have ads.....So will my logging in be tracked IN ANY WAY by the companies who are paying BG for ad space?
Will these companies be able to see members' posts?

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: Sorontar on August 19, 2020, 01:13:12 pm
Thank you to proteus for the work they have done, stepping up for the community when the role originally arose. I am sorry I can't offer my services as an Admin (backup Mod/Advisor perhaps - I have an IT background but more in AI and the social dimensions, not in systems).

My recommendation is that this thread needs to focus on who is willing to be in the core team that makes the decisions and does the (hard) work to keep BG running in some way. Let's leave the discussion of what way that is and advertising etc to another thread.

I agree that we need multiple Admins, even if there is one core one whose name is attached to some deals. Every major role in any community needs a (drop dead) deputy. All roles even in business need someone-else who can do the same work if needed. So I recommend we have at least two Admins, even if one is the primary Admin. A third as a emergency deputy would also be great. Any deals with hosts etc need to allow for multiple Admins to speak on behalf of the primary Admin.

We also need to look at which Moderators are active and decide how many of them are needed. The Admins shouldn't have to do the moderation work as well (unless they want to). If there are only 2-3 regular mods then we need 2-3 part-time mods who can be called on when needed. The account names of this team of Admins and mods needs to be listed somewhere. There needs to be a senior mod (and deputy) who have contact details (email and maybe phone number) for the Admins. The Admins need contact details for each other. If any of the mods or admins is away from the forum for 6-12 months, someone needs to contact them. If they don't want to continute the role or don't reply within a week or two, a new person can be given the role. This way, there is always someone already in that role who can help someone new. There is always someone who can step in.

This may sound like it needs by-laws and procedures, but really it doesn't. We just need to be sensible in how this community does things. Obviously, having "staff" in Europe/Africa, the Americas and Asia/Pacific would be ideal but if it isn't possible, having staff anywhere is fine.

So, back to the question asked by proteus, who is willing to take on one of Admin roles?
And I ask, who is (still) willing to be a Moderator?
I put my hand up as a part-time/drop dead/emergency Mod.

Sorontar

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: James Harrison on August 19, 2020, 01:29:09 pm
Happy to volunteer as a mod, if required.

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: Mercury Wells on August 19, 2020, 02:26:09 pm
Request withdrawn.

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: Rockula on August 20, 2020, 11:49:42 am
I have no real computer knowledge or skills.
I'm happy to continue to wield a Ban Hammer and fight the Spam as I do that every day.

Anything more 'technical' and I'm useless.

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: von Corax on August 21, 2020, 11:07:07 am
How many of the currently-active mods would be willing to chip in, say, $5 a month?

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: SeVeNeVeS on August 21, 2020, 01:07:11 pm
Quote from: von Corax on August 21, 2020, 11:07:07 am
How many of the currently-active mods would be willing to chip in, say, $5 a month?
Not after Mod status, but I would be more than willing to pay $5 a month to the kitty, works out about a pound a week.

You thinking of Admin, von Corax? If so, you have, without a shadow of doubt, got my vote.

I would say say keep the current active Mods, they do a wonderful job and we do appreciate the fine work they do!!!

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: Madasasteamfish on August 21, 2020, 01:15:49 pm
Quote from: von Corax on August 21, 2020, 11:07:07 am
How many of the currently-active mods would be willing to chip in, say, $5 a month?

I reckon I could scrounge up a fiver each month.

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: J. Wilhelm on August 21, 2020, 08:08:51 pm
Quote from: von Corax on August 21, 2020, 11:07:07 am
How many of the currently-active mods would be willing to chip in, say, $5 a month?

I hate monthly payments, I'll make a single yearly donation instead if needed.

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: Deimos on August 22, 2020, 06:20:06 am
Quote from: SeVeNeVeS on August 21, 2020, 01:07:11 pm
Quote from: von Corax on August 21, 2020, 11:07:07 am
How many of the currently-active mods would be willing to chip in, say, $5 a month?
Not after Mod status, but I would be more than willing to pay $5 a month to the kitty, works out about a pound a week.

You thinking of Admin, von Corax? If so, you have, without a shadow of doubt, got my vote.

I would say say keep the current active Mods, they do a wonderful job and we do appreciate the fine work they do!!!

Like SeVeNeVeS I have no desire to "mod" but I can raise my current $3 (USD) /mo to $5 without breaking too much of a sweat. ;D

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: J. Wilhelm on August 22, 2020, 09:04:16 am
Quote from: Deimos on August 22, 2020, 06:20:06 am
Quote from: SeVeNeVeS on August 21, 2020, 01:07:11 pm
Quote from: von Corax on August 21, 2020, 11:07:07 am
How many of the currently-active mods would be willing to chip in, say, $5 a month?
Not after Mod status, but I would be more than willing to pay $5 a month to the kitty, works out about a pound a week.

You thinking of Admin, von Corax? If so, you have, without a shadow of doubt, got my vote.

I would say say keep the current active Mods, they do a wonderful job and we do appreciate the fine work they do!!!

Like SeVeNeVeS I have no desire to "mod" but I can raise my current $3 (USD) /mo to $5 without breaking too much of a sweat. ;D

Strangely, I like the idea of an annual membership fee. Not to stop new people from coming in, mind you. You don't want to discourage new people from perusing the boards, which even a $5 fee could do, but to have a "gate" for higher benefits in the forum, as opposed to people who only interact for one day or one week, because they saw something interesting and registered. Something akin to a "Guest and Member" hierarchy.

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: J. Wilhelm on August 22, 2020, 09:23:18 am
Quote from: Deimos on August 17, 2020, 09:47:47 am
OK...so let's say we have ads.....So will my logging in be tracked IN ANY WAY by the companies who are paying BG for ad space?
Will these companies be able to see members' posts?

I think it's next to impossible to find a venue which isn't tracked by anybody. That's how websites get ranked in search engines. When you search for "brassgoggles" we come out at the top of the list, even though there are many websites with similar or identical names in their headers or hypertext content (eg "brass goggles"). Not being able to be tracked in any way effectively can result in you not even being visible in search engines (ie how did you find about us?). Father Google needs to know how often you're visited, and thus rank you in the lists so others can find you.

And about companies being able to read the content of your posts... They are doing that right now... Heck, the FIFA and gambling bots are doing that right now. If you look at the list of pages being accessed (when logged in, click on the "x guests y users" flag on the lower left part of the main page), and you'll see a whole bunch of "guests" reading random pages of the website, many of which are inactive pages which haven't been written on for years or even a decade. Those are bots, not people, crawling though the content of our website. Some of those bots are very smart and use AI to target and catalogue contents, such as word usage, topics, etc.

Sometimes AI bots pose as real people and are capable of asking and answering rudimentary questions related to Steampunk. You don't see that because you're not banning them like I do every day, as soon as I see them.

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: Deimos on August 22, 2020, 10:34:48 am
(http://[/url)
Quote from: J. Wilhelm on August 22, 2020, 09:04:16 am
Strangely, I like the idea of an annual membership fee. Not to stop new people from coming in, mind you. You don't want to discourage new people from perusing the boards, which even a $5 fee could do, but to have a "gate" for higher benefits in the forum, as opposed to people who only interact for one day or one week, because they saw something interesting and registered. Something akin to a "Guest and Member" hierarchy.


I'm OK with an option that allows "regulars" to pay an annual fee  (and get more perks   )

Quote from: J. Wilhelm on August 22, 2020, 09:23:18 am
Quote from: Deimos on August 17, 2020, 09:47:47 am
OK...so let's say we have ads.....So will my logging in be tracked IN ANY WAY by the companies who are paying BG for ad space?
Will these companies be able to see members' posts?

...
And about companies being able to read the content of your posts... They are doing that right now... Heck, the FIFA and gambling bots are doing that right now. If you look at the list of pages being accessed (when logged in, click on the "x guests y users" flag on the lower left part of the main page), and you'll see a whole bunch of "guests" reading random pages of the website, many of which are inactive pages which haven't been written on for years or even a decade. Those are bots, not people, crawling though the content of our website. Some of those bots are very smart and use AI to target and catalogue contents, such as word usage, topics, etc.

... You don't see that because you're not banning them like I do every day, as soon as I see them.



                                                                                            (https://emojipedia-us.s3.dualstack.us-west-1.amazonaws.com/thumbs/120/whatsapp/238/face-screaming-in-fear_1f631.png)

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: von Corax on August 22, 2020, 10:59:54 am
Quote from: J. Wilhelm on August 22, 2020, 09:04:16 am
Strangely, I like the idea of an annual membership fee. Not to stop new people from coming in, mind you. You don't want to discourage new people from perusing the boards, which even a $5 fee could do, but to have a "gate" for higher benefits in the forum, as opposed to people who only interact for one day or one week, because they saw something interesting and registered. Something akin to a "Guest and Member" hierarchy.
I don't care for the idea, unless we could come up with some sort of "Member Plus" premium benefit. I joined on a whim, to contribute to a discussion on duelling in Queensland; had there been a registration fee I quite likely would not be here.

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: von Corax on August 22, 2020, 11:04:59 am
Quote from: Deimos on August 17, 2020, 09:47:47 am
OK...so let's say we have ads.....So will my logging in be tracked IN ANY WAY by the companies who are paying BG for ad space?
Will these companies be able to see members' posts?
Will advertisers be able to track whether you're logged in? No. Will they be able to track whether you see an advertisement, and whether you click on an advertisement? Absolutely; that's how we would get paid for the advertisements.

Will they be able to see members' posts? Currently, anyone can see members' posts.

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: von Corax on August 22, 2020, 11:09:33 am
Quote from: SeVeNeVeS on August 21, 2020, 01:07:11 pm
You thinking of Admin, von Corax? If so, you have, without a shadow of doubt, got my vote.
I haven't fallen over yet, but I am leaning heavily.

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: James Harrison on August 22, 2020, 11:20:05 am
My $3 / month contribution I could easily whack up to $5.  Regarding allowing ads; well I run an adblock (have you seen the absolute carnage out there?- I've regard it as an absolute prerequisite) so as long as we're not going to go down the 'must be disabled to allow you access' or adblock-proof ads route I struggle to see it would affect my experience of the site.  

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: Rockula on August 22, 2020, 11:59:08 am
I used to pay the $3 a month for about 10 years until about a year ago when it looked like the fee wasn't giving us the support we needed.

I thought the whole thing was going to go down permanently and thought I was just wasting my money.

However, I'm now prepared to start paying $3 or even $5 a month again if we are guaranteed the  site will have the full support it needs from people with the necessary skills.

I do NOT like the idea of advertising in any form. Every other Forum I've been a Member of that introduced Advertising has died.

Maybe one Membership perk could be to pay a Premium to not have adverts?

Anyway, I await developments with interest.

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: SeVeNeVeS on August 22, 2020, 12:27:42 pm
I run Ad Block Plus in firefox, never seen an ad on sparegoggles and never realized it was supported by the perishing things.

IMHO the forum should remain open and available to all, subscription's should  be voluntary, none of this exclusive stuff.

We are here to show, inform, advise and educate a random fishing interest in Steampunk via gooooooglything. Hopefully inspired, they themselves will join and contribute

So, no members only shyte, keep it exactly as it is.

edit...... what exactly does a Governor do? (I've been looking at the current Mod list stuff)

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: J. Wilhelm on August 23, 2020, 09:22:08 am
Quote from: von Corax on August 22, 2020, 10:59:54 am
Quote from: J. Wilhelm on August 22, 2020, 09:04:16 am
Strangely, I like the idea of an annual membership fee. Not to stop new people from coming in, mind you. You don't want to discourage new people from perusing the boards, which even a $5 fee could do, but to have a "gate" for higher benefits in the forum, as opposed to people who only interact for one day or one week, because they saw something interesting and registered. Something akin to a "Guest and Member" hierarchy.
I don't care for the idea, unless we could come up with some sort of "Member Plus" premium benefit. I joined on a whim, to contribute to a discussion on duelling in Queensland; had there been a registration fee I quite likely would not be here.

Yeah, I know. Even a $5 fee will keep the random passer by away. That's why I was pushing for ad support. But once you go intro privately funded, you can't just lean on a few people to finance the place. Membership is not even close to what it used to be. For those "fledgling fora" the type of platform sparegoggles.forumotion.net uses is best.

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: James Harrison on August 23, 2020, 09:35:00 am
Quote from: J. Wilhelm on August 23, 2020, 09:22:08 am
Even a $5 fee will keep the random passer by away (...) Membership is not even close to what it used to be.

I think that hits the nail on the head right there.  How many active members do we actually have at the moment?  My personal experience is that there are loads of people around who are either interested in steampunk or are active members of the community but only a small proportion of them are members here.  Facebook and other social media platforms are usurping the role of the forum (I mean generally, not specifically BG) which is a damn shame.

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: SeVeNeVeS on August 23, 2020, 12:28:05 pm
Quote from: von Corax on August 22, 2020, 11:09:33 am
Quote from: SeVeNeVeS on August 21, 2020, 01:07:11 pm
You thinking of Admin, von Corax? If so, you have, without a shadow of doubt, got my vote.
I haven't fallen over yet, but I am leaning heavily.
So, the question is, if our good von Corax decides to teeter over, who will be back up?

I'm thinking  J. Wilhelm.

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: MWBailey on August 23, 2020, 12:55:30 pm
Somebody has to NOT  be a Pollyanna  here. I guess it'll have to be me, again.

Funny thing, not everybody who's a "regular" member posts or comments every day. Sorry guys, but until you make a fee mandatory, I'll keep showing up at whiles (Yep, this is that kind of comment)...

Another "funny" thing: it's all well and good to say you're in favor of a membership fee, but there are those who will be unable to do the membership fee thing, for various reasons, not always due to funds availability. Are you saying they don't deserve to be able to sign up, because they don't have enough money, or can't pay the fee for other reasons? Are current members who can't afford the fee or can't pay it for other reasons going to have to leave and not be members, because they don't belong to the In The Money Club?

Sorry, I know the idea that "anybody wholesome" can afford "a $5.00 fee" is a an appealing, comfy, great, rosy idea, but that's just a big, rosy, comfy fantasy that often pops up the heads of elitists and rich people. Real life doesn't necessarily work that way. "Just $5.00" is camel spine breakage material to some people, especially right now. Being able to pay for internet connection does not necessarily equate to being able to pay membership fees, or even in some circumstances ONE membership fee (it's called the Real World, folks. It exists, will ye, nil ye). With the economy all over the world the way it is right now, and joblessness inceasing all over the place, money can be a real issue. Not everybody who's unable to pay a fee is a malcontent; some are in a bad way financially through no fault of their own, and will have to make the choice between a membership fee and keeping life and soul together. Guess what? They'll most likely choose to keep eating, once it sinks in just how desperate their situation actually is. There goes, I suspect, even more of the longtime current membership.

Then there's people like me, for example, who made a promise a long time ago to a dear relative who's still alive and living in the same house that they would not pay a fee for membership to anything online (like I said above, that's one sure way to get rid of me: make an online fee mandatory). There are other, nonfinancial reasons for not wanting a fee, I'm sure. But anyway, again, there goes another section of the longtime membership.

I realize, though, that that's exactly what some secretly want: to kick out all of the people they don't think belong here. Infrequent posters (like me). People who routinely mention how little money they have (like me). People whose politics leak out occasiionally (I try to avoid it buuut...). People who dare to say that some rule or mandate is unfair (?). People who don't have money (?) ... Before long, the people who want to kick everybody else out will be the only ones left. A site full of nothing but grumpy loners. Won't that be fun...

Some members see BG as the last light in a darkening world, a place where they can still come and not have to give in to the fat cats of the world in order to belong to something. I guess it must be time to kill that hope off and blow out a few more lamps. Can't have poor people on here, they might stain the linoleum.

But sure, I get it. Those pesky ads are a cast iron problem. Durn things look at your cookies and determine you want to see this or that ad that you're not really too comfortable with having on your screen. I guess it's a much better idea to kick out the poor people and the people who dare to express a differing opinion, so you don't have to look at them or those inconveniently right-on-target ads, huh?

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: SeVeNeVeS on August 23, 2020, 01:16:49 pm
I'm sorry here but am I reading things wrong?, there is no mention of a mandatory 5 bucks just to be a member. von Corax asked if the current Mods would be willing to contribute and few other members said they would too.

As for adverts, yet undecided, but a general no in that direction. all you have to do is add a blocker to your browser and problem solved.

Can we please all be a little focused here.

Or is it me not getting the gist  :-\

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: von Corax on August 23, 2020, 02:46:40 pm
Quote from: SeVeNeVeS on August 23, 2020, 01:16:49 pm
I'm sorry here but am I reading things wrong?, there is no mention of a mandatory 5 bucks just to be a member. von Corax asked if the current Mods would be willing to contribute and few other members said they would too.

As for adverts, yet undecided, but a general no in that direction. all you have to do is add a blocker to your browser and problem solved.

Can we please all be a little focused here.

Or is it me not getting the gist  :-\
Nope, you got it. I'm opposed to the idea of a membership fee for pretty much all the reasons MW outlined. I was just hoping to guilt a few more donors, because, as I (like many of us) find myself in somewhat reduced circumstance, paying the entire US$65 (~CA$90) per month myself would be a bit of a stress. I've PMed proteus to ask how much the current donations cover, and am awaiting an answer.

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: Deimos on August 23, 2020, 06:16:46 pm
Junuea, I can't see (so please correct me if I'm wrong) where it has ever been suggested, implied or insinuated that anyone is trying to get anyone else marginalized, excluded or jettisoned.
For anyone to make that assumption comes very close to rash judging.

I said I'd be willing to pay a fee for more perks.
I belong to another forum  (actually I belong to half a dozen...only one requires a fee, and that just happened), that doesn't require a fee, but if you choose to donate you get a few perks that  non donors  don't get, namely more storage space for PM's and the tag PREMIUM FORUM SUPPORTER under your avatar pic (which is 'way cooler than more PM space  ;D )

If, IF, we should go to a voluntary format that rewards donors with a few perks I don't see that as being elitest.
I bear no resentment toward anyone if they can afford something I can't (or if I can afford it I choose not to purchase it).

I just recently became a member of the GCR567 Locomotive Group, the same one to which our James Harrison belongs.
GCR567 Locomotive Group (http://brassgoggles.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,48429.0.html)
If you are a subscriber (yearly donation required) you are guaranteed a seat on the maiden run.

Now, in all likelihood I will never be a passenger on that historic run because I live 5267 miles (8476 km) from where the locomotive sits.
I can't afford to fly over there for the celebration, and so will give my seat away to someone else who would give his right arm to be on that run, but can't afford the yearly subscription to qualify.

And even if I wasn't guaranteed a seat I would still donate.
Some things (like BG) are worth donating to keep them running (or even get them running   ) just because they are good things that should be kept operational.    


 

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: J. Wilhelm on August 23, 2020, 08:12:32 pm
Seems to be a case of "I want my cake and eat it too." Please make a bit of time to look again at the conditions that led Proteus to hand over the site.

For me, it's very simple, and I reiterate, my preference is #1 below, but realistically these are your options:

1. Ad supported site, because obligatory fees will bring down membership, AND voluntary fees are not enough, thus placing an undue burden upon the shoulders of one or several administrative staff. Facing financial hardship due to the pandemic and a very low membership enrollment, it doesn't make sense to make Brassgoggles a private club financed by one or very few people. In fact, I think brassgoggles.co.uk is too much of a private club right now, which is why membership is low.

2. But if we MUST make keep brassgoggles a private club, then fees (obligatory or not) will be needed. The most likely outcome is that moderators and administrators will be the only ones paying the fees, with one or two members making anonimous random contributions. Thus, administrators must commit to supporting the site. Fees will not be optional for them.

It's a fact folks. Realistically you only have two choices. 1. AD supported forum, or 2. Voluntary fee, with Admin and moderators actually being the ones paying. - Isn't that *mostly* what's happening right now anyway?

I have no problem paying a bit for being an administrator. I'll gladly pay a personal $5 monthly (or the $60 contribution for fees for the first year) for Brassgoggles.co.uk Mk. II, which is 1/12th of the annual budget - but what about the 11 other parts of the budget?

The reason I'll chip in, is that brassgoggles.co.uk has given me so much over the years, including help from members, when I was in dire straights and trying not to be homeless a decade ago, that I figure I OWE brassgoggles.co.uk a bit of my money and time. What we can't do, however, is all lean on one person to pay for the fees. A minimum designated group of people would HAVE to cover the costs, and that may include moderators, so might as well make that a requirement for Brassgoggles officers. Being an administrator is a paid privilege and a personal responsibility.

The only thing is that I am a scientist, not an IT guy. I know a lot about computers, but not about networks. My knowledge on setting up servers goes all the way back to the 1990s, when I setup a workstation as a server (that's the way it used to be in the earliest days of internet). Mainly I use computers as giant calculators, so unless you want an upwind direct Navier Stokes numerical simulation of à supersonic flow past a hemisphere, I'm afraid I won't be the expert. I don't think it's too challenging for me to learn, but I have to learn. The primary administrator, thus, must be someone who is familiar with networking. Preferably with experience.

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: Deimos on August 23, 2020, 08:56:39 pm
I said I'd increase my donation to $5/month ($60 /year)
If there is a way for me to make a single annual donation I will sign up to donate $65 annually.
That covers one month's operating costs.

But I am opposed to ads.

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: J. Wilhelm on August 23, 2020, 09:06:09 pm
Quote from: Deimos on August 23, 2020, 08:56:39 pm
I said I'd increase my donation to $5/month ($60 /year)
If there is a way for me to make a single annual donation I will sign up to donate $65 annually.
That covers one month's operating costs.

But I am opposed to ads.

Sorry, I kept editing my post. It's hard to type on my phone.

Anyhow,  you're right. My point is that if all members pay for a fee, there's no problem. But if we *also* insist on voluntary fees for members only, then with no ads, someone must still commit to pay the fees. The only reasonable way is for administrators to finance the budget deficit when there aren't enough contributions. That is exactly what brassgoggles.co.uk is doing now.

We have to bite one of two bullets. But in the end we have to bite a bullet. Because what's happening now to Proteus will happen to anyone who takes over.

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: Prof Marvel on August 24, 2020, 04:41:09 am
Greetings My Dear Netizens....

sorry to be tardy, but a combination of airconditioner and laptop failures put me "out of pocket" for a bit.

I also, want to keep this forum alive!

We all have seen how little new activity there is on here.
If it weren't for J Wilhelm and Chicar and a couple others posting there might be, what,  one new post a day?

We have
Very few makers,
Few events reports ( few events, so...)
Few projects

I am as guilty as any.

I have seen the more energetic people who were rebuilding cars, steam engines, remodelling RV's or
trailers, motorcycles, or houses into steampunk .... slowly drift away.

We have lost Many of the interesting people like Tower, Sgt.Major Thistlewaite, Miles (a sailor)Martin ,
D.Oakes, Cap'n Harlock, Utini, Storey, Akumabito, and many others, and esp the actual
machinists who seem to  have left ?

We are also no longer having long lovely threads such as
"Fighting like a Steam punk"
"Etiquette"

and a few other interesting topics.

We need More Like That.

And  good projects! ( right prof, where's all your projects, hmmm? )

None of us are interested in
 "how I made my steampunk goggles from toilet paper tubes, glitter, and macaroni"
But we need more of the tooling and modelmaker threads and discussions!

My thoughts-
Brassgoggles is actually a Club.
It was built and maintained by proteus & other notables, but he is passing on the mantle.

But, you know what, it's OUR club.
So, WE need to take over from proteus and find a way to keep it going.

I would not mind a couple of bucks a month, if we can do something like paypal or even one of those
"tip jar" things the web comic sites use, it makes it easy.

I do not mind the idea of ads, as J Wilhelm said, "the watchers and bots" are skimming this site anyway,
and some ads can pay for the server.

Regaridng privacy & etc, .... J Wilhelm may not have been an IT guy... but I was.

Deimos, and anyone else - if you are concerned about privacy, I can put together a little STEP-BY-STEP tutorial , on how
to set up your browser , and you won't even SEE any ads, and they won't be able to track you.


BTW regarding funding,  it does not have to be "either or"
1) we could start with an annual fund drive, freely given.
2) we could add "subscriptions" that give the user a Fancy Hat Avatar or some such
3) If funds start running short, we can talk about ads and how to keep Well Known Citizens safe (I can and will help with that)
4) J's idea of charging to sign up has merit - with a twist: grandfather in all existing users, but charge newbies $1 or so
   (one time) to sign up - it MIGHT really limit the spam, bots, and one-time "come see my shop" barstiches.

While we are at it I should like to bring up moving BG to a hosting service that is "not in the U.K. or Australia"
No offense, but there is quite a bit of conversation killing going on due to fear of offending the UK government .
Basically coming down to   "Can't talk about XYZ due to UK/ Aus / NZ Thought Police".

That has REALLY stifled a lot of otherwise interesting discussion, and a lot of good people just said "screw this" and left.

I don't want or intend to turn this into a "weapons forum", but am really after more "freeedom of speech" - ie freer discussion of  Everything Victorian/ Steamy ( except xxxx porn ) would be welcome. Let's face it, some of the livelier discussions were about various esoteric weapons and fighting techniques of the day. Those threads went on for MONTHS. Also, the Etiquette thread, and the 'Definition of a Lady, Gentleman, gypsy, Pirate, etc ....

It doesn't have to be right away, and nothing against Brits, but worrying about the UK government taking offense over
some trifle one posts simply isn't "right"...  and being on a vetted "neutral" server farm has other advantages especially
vis-a-vis privacy and etc.

more later.
prof marvel

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: Deimos on August 24, 2020, 06:42:56 am
Yes! What Professor Marvel said!
A lot of good ideas, especially for funding the site (and I want one of those Fancy Hats!)

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: J. Wilhelm on August 24, 2020, 07:01:56 am
Can we have a "see no ads" feature for those who opt to pay? That might welcome anyone visiting. The only thing is that we may be limiting fee income as well.

I guess what I want is to guarantee the financing of the server without leaning financially on the administrators. And I hate the idea of begging the members for funds "a-la Jerry Lewis' Telethon" for those of you old enough to know what I'm talking about.

Ads may be good for financing , or a combination of ads and fees, but I don't know all the possibilities. I'm speaking off the cuff, because I really know nothing about this. All I know is that Steampunk Mexico's forum, http://steampunk.mexico-foro.com/, (http://steampunk.mexico-foro.com/,) is still happily running, like a ship sailing without a captain, even after being abandoned for Facebook. I guess they left the forum in the same capacity as our https://sparegoggles.forumotion.net (https://sparegoggles.forumotion.net).

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: J. Wilhelm on August 24, 2020, 07:27:55 am
Another idea which went nowhere the last time we tried to attract people was to have a Facebook page (we have one) and Twitter accounts (we have two, I think one unofficial and one official?) Mostly to keep people appraised of the forum status. We (meaning I) did successfully use the Facebook page to warn people that our domain address had expired (brassgoggles.co.uk) and we could be found at brassgoggles.net(/com?) for an extended period of time years ago.

I will reiterate THAT I HATE FACEBOOK. And I think that recent events have shown why. That might work toward our advantage. I know that currently a number of people have abandoned or closed their personal Facebook pages, but I suspect that doesn't apply to clubs. We will need to mount an expedition to see how many Steampunk groups remain, and figure how to re-establish contact.

The only thing I'd like to add, related to Twitter /Facebook is that we've been targeted for abuse by Mr. Ottens, the Diesekpunk guy, who has mounted a relentless campaign to malign Steampunk as a movement. He is promoting a thread on his online blog, whereby he keeps repeating that Steampunk is dead by suicide, and every few months he places a series of Twitter (and I imagine Facebook) posts saying how Steampunk is dead and why. In reality it's the same tired old thread he started years ago, where his guests come in and take cheap shots at Steampunk. This has been going on for more than a year, probably two years.

Why is he doing that? Well, my guess is that he's deriving some advantage from the controversy somehow. But it's gotten so bad, I've actually had to block him on Twitter. I don't know what to do about that, but we had a thread on the subject in the Metaphysical section.

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: Prof Marvel on August 24, 2020, 07:51:53 am
Proteus has given us some time to work this out, so lets use it well.

If we take over BG, we can continue to make this our interweb club, pub, & etc.
It does not have to be exclusive.

Perhaps there can be perks for paying members such as one or more member-only subforums, perhaps a spot to upload photos...

A few other thoughts-

I am on several muzzleloading sites and do not pay a fee

- One site has an annual fund drive - basically requesting donations. nothing mandatory and it covers the server costs.

- Another site has ads - this has not been a problem. I use "uBlock Origin" and clear cookies & etc .
   Thus, No tracking. And I don't see ads.
   I also use a free utility called "Ccleaner" that wipes out all traces of anything left on my machine.
 
Diemos - I myself am a privacy freak-geek. I regularly cruise forums with ads, and do not see them and am unaffected.
PM me and I can help.

If we can clearly identify and enumerate the tasks, we could divvy up some of the chores.
I have never run  a forum, but as a retired Sys Admin and IT guy, I can offer a lot of technical expertise.


other possible ideas -
- reading is ALWAYS free

- charge a small fee "$1 or something" for "new users" to post which will keep the spam down (yeah, I already said that)

- grandfather in the existing well-known members as "gratis-emeriitas" -
    ie "we like you so you are free but can donate whatever you feel you can"
    add cute hat under the nameplate as "donor" or "emeritas"

- set up a "NEWBY" subforum - after 10 or 15 or 20 actually valuable posts you get grandfathered in unless you violate T.O.S.

I realize this is a tad complicated but...

---
My Dear J -
I see no need for facebook or twit. Dumping them would be no loss.
If  this "Mr. Ottens, the Diesekpunk guy" is a real problem, as in "causing actual financial loss", or "mental duress,"
or any of several newish legally actionable thingies, I could make him my new hobby.
If he is merely a loud boorish troll on faceyspace, let him stew in his own karmic faceyspace juices until the Universe
catches up with him.





Oh, and here's a hat for Deimos

(https://i.postimg.cc/2jXVstB0/deimos.png)

yhs
prof marvel

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: SeVeNeVeS on August 24, 2020, 08:36:02 am
Sorry to be the one who has to bring this BACK ON TOPIC.

WHO is willing, able and prepared to be our new Admin?

von Corax I think is considering/ pondering. (and would be my choice)

We can thrash out details later, which by the looks could be a long slog, but we need a new valiant leader to step up soon.

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: J. Wilhelm on August 24, 2020, 09:26:56 am
Quote from: SeVeNeVeS on August 24, 2020, 08:36:02 am
Sorry to be the one who has to bring this BACK ON TOPIC.

WHO is willing, able and prepared to be our new Admin?

von Corax I think is considering/ pondering. (and would be my choice)

We can thrash out details later, which by the looks could be a long slog, but we need a new valiant leader to step up soon.

Careful not to miss the details, Mr. Seveneves. Let me be clear: administrators *potentially* and depending on what system of governance we choose, may need to commit to wholly or partially finance the forum ($65 x 12 = $780 per year) UNLESS we can hash out a site + payment plan + donation plan +advertisement method, etc, which is what those posts above are detailing.

I can't see anyone raising their hand right now, saying "yes, yes, I'll be the admin" if he/she doesn't even know how much money he/she will have to commit to pay in the future, yes? Or let me put it bluntly. I will not commit to anything unless I have a plan on the table. I can give you guys $65/yr. , but I won't commit to give you $780. Even dividing $780 by 3 admin is a good chunk of change for a small forum with very few members that could be run for free with ads.

As far as who could line up to be an administrator, I think I've read at least three names besides myself for candidates to admin positions.

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: SeVeNeVeS on August 24, 2020, 09:34:37 am
Fair enough. I will sit back for a while and lurk.

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: Deimos on August 24, 2020, 09:39:10 am
Quote from: J. Wilhelm on August 24, 2020, 09:26:56 am
....
I can't see anyone raising their hand right now, saying "yes, yes, I'll be the admin" if he/she doesn't even know how much money he/she will have to commit to pay in the future, yes? ...

Precisely.  Discussing the various potential sources of revenue --or lack of them-- is very much germane to the conversation of folks offering to serve in admin positions.

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: Prof Marvel on August 24, 2020, 09:58:57 am
Quote from: Deimos on August 24, 2020, 09:39:10 am
Quote from: J. Wilhelm on August 24, 2020, 09:26:56 am
....
I can't see anyone raising their hand right now, saying "yes, yes, I'll be the admin" if he/she doesn't even know how much money he/she will have to commit to pay in the future, yes? ...

Precisely.  Discussing the various potential sources of revenue --or lack of them-- is very much germane to the conversation of folks offering to serve in admin positions.

Yes, this is EXACTLY the point. The duties are not so much the problem as procuring the needed revenue.

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: Cora Courcelle on August 24, 2020, 05:31:09 pm
For what it's worth (from someone who could no more be an admin than she could fly), I don't mind ads and personal circumstances mean I have to consider carefully how I spend my money.

I'd hate to lose BG but the Professor is quite correct to point out that there isn't much steampunk input going on at the moment - yes, I am also guilty of not posting frequently - it would be a shame if more people left because they felt they weren't getting anything valuable from the forum and were being asked to pay a 'donation'.

Of course whoever takes over can't be expected to carry the cost.
Do people really hate ads that much?


--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: Deimos on August 24, 2020, 10:30:35 pm
Quote from: Prof Marvel on August 24, 2020, 07:51:53 am
....Oh, and here's a hat for Deimos

(https://i.postimg.cc/2jXVstB0/deimos.png)
yhs
prof marvel
@ Prof Marvel...forgot to thank you for the hat....very jaunty.

Also, the suggestion of moving the server out of the UK.... I have to agree with the Prof on this one too.
US isn't nearly so skittish when it comes to discussions about weapons, especially guns.

(edited)

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: Augustus Longeye on August 24, 2020, 11:54:52 pm
Seems I chose an interesting time to check up on this old haunt. A few thoughts.

For all those saying they'll simply block the adverts; good for you. However someone's name will be on the bill, someone's account will be paying the fees every month. Everyone who doesn't view ads and blocks them is now not contributing anything and making that person pay out more, potentially up to the previously mentioned $700 odd a year. Ads are also not a magic solution, you've noticed the place is effectively dead now? How much do you think it'll actually generate in ad revenue? Bots don't count (the current majority of active users it seems from the activity page), ad revenue is a complicated calculation based on views, clickthrough, and activity.

For anyone considering running as "the administrator" (and yes, one person will have to be the named the legal owner for DNS purposes and be financially responsible unless you're setting up a formal organisation) I speak from experience; assume you will have to pay all the fees, because it is very rare the money materialises from anywhere else unless you are selling something. If you're not happy with the responsibility of paying the fees you'd best avoid it. Even when people promise to pay that drops off quickly and you find yourself unable to back out without shutting it down or passing it on.

Whatever the answer there would need to be large scale changes which inevitably mean you lose a significant portion of your userbase, that's true if you go ads or fees (even voluntary), and you can see it from this thread alone.

Maybe it's time to let it die, move everyone active who cares to follow to a Discord group, Masto instance, or similar. Set up a nice cheap web page directing users to it with a link to an archived version of the forum.

Either way it's running on software 7 years out of date which is a security nightmare waiting to happen, software I imagine is now completely unsupported, and averaging little more than a few posts a day. It's not running on HTTPS from what I can see so it's not going to be long until browsers start outright blocking it, and the work required to bring it to any semblance of modernity is more than anyone here has the technical ability to follow through with.

I've been here or there for 10 years now, and I know it predates me by a long way. Such is the way of life. Anachronisms are all fine to play at until the forum software is hacked and everyone's details leaked, which will have real world consequences and I'm surprised hasn't already happened considering in 5 minutes I could find at least 3 unpatched exploits that are effective against SMF 1.1.20.

A shame, but this place used to be polite and nice. It didn't used to be a place where people unironically used the term "woke... snowflakes". Disappointing.

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: Sorontar on August 25, 2020, 12:29:19 am
Brass Goggles isn't alone. I am in a number of other communities. Here's how some of them work...

A club wiki that is effectively archived because no-one bothers to update or add pages. Funding is by the club.
A gaming site with a forum that is dated with only a few contributors. The software is dated and complicated. Funding is by the host. Originally it was a mailing list, then a forum, then a forum/wiki mix.
Another gaming site with a forum that uses dated and complicated software. Funding is a miracle by donation. They have set up Discord as Plan B. They have lost a lot of contributors ove r the last few years.
A club that uses a forum. Funding is by the club. They refuse to shift to any social media that they can't control and "own". Branches tend to use social media but are forced to make announcements on the forum by central.

I use ad-block and other semi-protective measures. It does not really impact the sites because I wouldn't click on ads anyway.

Ultimately, whoever takes on the Admin roles will have the choice of how to run BG because they are doing the hard work. Others may dislike their choices, and leave, but such is life.

Yes, we talked about using social media like FB. I suggested using FB to (automatically) announce daily what the current discussion points are in the forum (and accepting no comments). That hasn't happened and https://www.facebook.com/pages/Brass-Goggles/ (https://www.facebook.com/pages/Brass-Goggles/) is unknown.

We have Spare Goggles already. What if Spare Goggles was to become the permanent site? What would the costs be? Could the community handle the shift? Who admins Spare Goggles?

Sorontar



--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: Prof Marvel on August 25, 2020, 02:00:18 am
+++ to What Augustus Longeye said!



Quote from: Sorontar on August 25, 2020, 12:29:19 am

We have Spare Goggles already. What if Spare Goggles was to become the permanent site? What would the costs be? Could the community handle the shift? Who admins Spare Goggles?

Sorontar

Interesting idea
- what are the costs & etc of sparegoggles?
- what are the ramifications of moving to Discord?

update:
I am not sure discord would work for us.... i found this:
------------
Q:
We currently have text and voice channels , but we don't have a way to have non-real-time conversations.
My suggestion is a forum channel.

The forum channel will have topics in a list clicking on single topics will open a thread where people can post
replies to just like a sub- forum on older style websites.

Discord only has real-time forms of conversation and does not allow for traditional forum based stuff. Not
everybody can be online on discord 24/7 to catch every bit of conversation and more crucial conversations
can be posted in these forum tabs.

Thank you for listing Naida
----
A: 1 year ago
discord isn't supposed to be like the old forums imo and text channels are better than forums so no, i don't see
how this can improve discord
------


Ah, so....
"Text Channels are better than forums"
Really?
No, not really.

best
prf mrvl



--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: J. Wilhelm on August 25, 2020, 03:14:08 am
Discord is not "Kosher" in my opinion. Perhaps I got the wrong impression, but I see a lot of seedy characters there. I don't think we're that "underground. Might as well move on to one of the" chan" darkweb sites.

Quote from: Sorontar on August 25, 2020, 12:29:19 am
SNIP
We have Spare Goggles already. What if Spare Goggles was to become the permanent site? What would the costs be? Could the community handle the shift? Who admins Spare Goggles?

Hear hear! I second the motion. I was under the impression that sparegoggles.forumotion.net was self sustaining already. Am I wrong? We can start a pilot programme right away to test the forumotion platform.

I'd like to add that the value of the brassgoggles.co.uk forum is in question. I'm not questioning the intelectual or intrinsic value of brassgoggles.co.uk, as there's a long and rich history behind it. But the value of the forum machinery itself is in question. I don't think that $780 / yr is an equitable price for a forum that is for all intents and purposes a small group of people - less than 50 people, including old time lurkers, for sure, likely less than ½ that number of active participants in a year. Living off donations is a luxury reserved for much bigger groups of people. Self-finincing like we used to is a bigger luxury, given that all of us are suffering from the impact of a pandemic. We must acknowledge that reality.

We're going to have to start small again. I don't see any shame in that. Better than closing shop and saying "it's all over folks"

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: J. Wilhelm on August 25, 2020, 03:30:58 am
Quote from: Augustus Longeye on August 24, 2020, 11:54:52 pm
Seems I chose an interesting time to check up on this old haunt. A few thoughts.

For all those saying they'll simply block the adverts; good for you. However someone's name will be on the bill, someone's account will be paying the fees every month. Everyone who doesn't view ads and blocks them is now not contributing anything and making that person pay out more, potentially up to the previously mentioned $700 odd a year. Ads are also not a magic solution, you've noticed the place is effectively dead now? How much do you think it'll actually generate in ad revenue? Bots don't count (the current majority of active users it seems from the activity page), ad revenue is a complicated calculation based on views, clickthrough, and activity.

SNIP

A shame, but this place used to be polite and nice. It didn't used to be a place where people unironically used the term "woke... snowflakes". Disappointing.

Perhaps you were under the impression we were discussing how to keep *this* forum clunker alive ;D trust me, the discussion wasn't really leaning that way ;D

Also I'd add that I'll be very harsh on people bringing political rhetoric into the forum. Discussions with Tower were very interesting, but they were interesting because *I* was waging full warfare against him, trying to contain his survivalist poison. He was an absolute handful to keep in check, and I don't think anyone else could successfully contain him (sorry for my narcissism, but it's true).

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: Sorontar on August 25, 2020, 03:37:11 am
My gaming group has shifted part of its operation to Discord for various reasons - the forum software is unstable, the gamers use Discord as the current free popular audio software for chatting while gaming (Mumble and TeamSpeak were some of the previous favourites, but don't do text chat well) and it removes the need to maintain the hardware (and is cheaper).

Yes, the textual aspects of Discord is a glorified chat room, not a forum or mailing list. I have heard that they are planning to connect conversational posts together, but I'll wait till I see that.

The point is that the gaming group needs a fallback position. Like we have Spare Goggles if BG falls over, they have Discord. If the collapse is permanent, they have enough in place in Discord to survive.

Sorontar

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: Prof Marvel on August 25, 2020, 04:07:36 am
Yeah, nearly $1k per year for BG is not sustainable...
and BG needs to be updated/upgraded/and needs ongoing maintenance and and and

I did some quick looking and found some "stuff"
https://webhostinggeeks.com/best-forum-hosting

So there are affordable alternatives...

but migrating BG over to elsewhere could be a nightmare.
BG is friggin BEAUTIFUL! The rich graphics are AWSOME
but right now, its all about the remaining forum members and the ability to chat, share, stay in contact, etc..

Let's investigate Spare Goggles.
- It's not as pretty
- it doesn;t have the incredibly rich graphics
- maybe we can add some later, maybe not

but it's THERE and running. No real migration is required just to use "as is"

we need to know
1) what does it cost?
2) where is it hosted?
3) what are the limits? size, members, throughput, etc...
4) more etc

How do we alert the existing membership, I mean beyond a banner header page here?
Is there a feature on BG to send a mass mailing announcement to all members?

If not, can we access the memberlist?
it is simple to run a shell script ( sh or rsh ) to pull members who logged on in the last year or so,
then parse for their email (if any) then check the addr for legit
and send a mass "we are moving" email to what is left in there.

also... let us say this forum is put in ARCHIVE mode,
with a banner directing folks to spare goggles or whatever
is there any cost involved to archive BG?
how long will it last?

I think we also ought to archive the entire BrassGoggles forum to The WayBack machine (aka Internet Archives)
for posterity and the public good.

damnit I love this place and the people on it......


--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: Prof Marvel on August 25, 2020, 04:50:15 am
I just jumped over to Spare Goggles, and

Wow

It's sort of an undecorated not-yet-steamy clubhouse, complete with most of the essential
forums, almost all of the current members, sort of all ready for us to jump ship,
take over, redecorate, etc etc...

So how can we do this strange thing?



yhs
prof marvel

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: J. Wilhelm on August 25, 2020, 05:01:15 am
Quote from: Prof Marvel on August 25, 2020, 04:50:15 am
I just jumped over to Spare Goggles, and

Wow

It's sort of an undecorated not-yet-steamy clubhouse, complete with most of the essential
forums, almost all of the current members, sort of all ready for us to jump ship,
take over, redecorate, etc etc...

So how can we do this strange thing?

yhs
prof marvel

Sparegoggles.forumotion.net is pretty basic, but it's complete. It's got a mobile version as well, so if you log in, you will se a very undecorated site, you need to request the desktop version from your web browser.

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: Prof Marvel on August 25, 2020, 05:23:02 am
So, a great alternative looks like

- Migrate people over to Spare Goggles
- back up Brass Gogles onto the Wayback Machine
- let proteus put BG into Archive mode and save him ~ 1k per year and TONS of aggravation...

Spare goggles is working and ready to go!
It's sort of an undecorated not-yet-steamy clubhouse, complete with most of the essential
forums, almost all of the current members, sort of all ready for us to jump ship,
take over, redecorate, etc etc...

So how can we do this strange ump ship thing?

If everyone agrees, I would like to see a bunch of lists:
1) who is the owner/operator of spare goggles?
2) are they willing to let an ill-defined group of wacky steampunk volunteers take it over?
3) what is the cost of running it? It's on Free Forum, which looks like, well, free!
4) can we put together a committee of wacky steampunk volunteers to redecorate & run the thing?
5) am I out of my mind?

I am investigating the ads, which are minimal.
I am investigating any "security issues" which seem minimal.

like I said before - I love this place and the people on it.
I am not willing to let it go quietly into the dark.


"passing of the baton"

yhs
prof marvel


--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: J. Wilhelm on August 25, 2020, 05:59:34 am
Quote from: Prof Marvel on August 25, 2020, 05:23:02 am
So, a great alternative looks like

- Migrate people over to Spare Goggles
- back up Brass Gogles onto the Wayback Machine
- let proteus put BG into Archive mode and save him ~ 1k per year and TONS of aggravation...

Spare goggles is working and ready to go!
It's sort of an undecorated not-yet-steamy clubhouse, complete with most of the essential
forums, almost all of the current members, sort of all ready for us to jump ship,
take over, redecorate, etc etc...

So how can we do this strange ump ship thing?

If everyone agrees, I would like to see a bunch of lists:
1) who is the owner/operator of spare goggles?
2) are they willing to let an ill-defined group of wacky steampunk volunteers take it over?
3) what is the cost of running it? It's on Free Forum, which looks like, well, free!
4) can we put together a committee of wacky steampunk volunteers to redecorate & run the thing?
5) am I out of my mind?

I am investigating the ads, which are minimal.
I am investigating any "security issues" which seem minimal.

like I said before - I love this place and the people on it.
I am not willing to let it go quietly into the dark.


"passing of the baton"

yhs
prof marvel



I haven't seen any ads on sparegoggles.forumotion.net. Are we paying, or is it free? You said, "Free Forum"

EDIT. nevermind, I see where it is... https://www.forumotion.com/create-forum/phpbb3 (https://www.forumotion.com/create-forum/phpbb3)
It's a free forum. Looks like they have a header type ad, but they're only their own ads.

For an example of regular ads, I just found the new site for the Mexican forum I listed above.The domain name changed to https://steampunk.forosactivos.net/ (https://steampunk.forosactivos.net/) in the last few years.

You'll see ads at the very bottom of the page, or at the top, below the page header. Very minimal. The forum looks abandoned since 2015, before the domain name changed. It's still running. No captain at the helm. Should I command that ship?

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: SeVeNeVeS on August 25, 2020, 07:53:31 am
2 initial hurdles with spare goggles, as von corax pointed out earlier in the thread

Quote from: von Corax on August 16, 2020, 04:13:10 am

Spare Goggles is an independent, ad-supported site that was set up by (I think) Pheobsky (who has since disappeared, and so no new SG memberships are being approved.)
So someone will have to contact Pheobsky, who has not been active here for 3 years.

I tried as an experiment to register under a different name with no joy, just got the runaround with I'm not a robot and captures of traffic lights, cars and buses.........so, if you ain't already a member, you can't join.

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: J. Wilhelm on August 25, 2020, 08:48:15 am
Quote from: SeVeNeVeS on August 25, 2020, 07:53:31 am
2 initial hurdles with spare goggles, as von corax pointed out earlier in the thread

Quote from: von Corax on August 16, 2020, 04:13:10 am

Spare Goggles is an independent, ad-supported site that was set up by (I think) Pheobsky (who has since disappeared, and so no new SG memberships are being approved.)
So someone will have to contact Pheobsky, who has not been active here for 3 years.

I tried as an experiment to register under a different name with no joy, just got the runaround with I'm not a robot and captures of traffic lights, cars and buses.........so, if you ain't already a member, you can't join.

So we make a new one. And while we're at it pick a best choice out of several sites. By that I mean a stable platform and not one about to go out of business. I wonder how old is forumotion.net, I imagine it's been purchased and sold over the years.

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: SeVeNeVeS on August 25, 2020, 09:05:20 am
IF BG is a financial no no ( I admit I would rather keep the old girl running if at all possible) but practicality has to be considered, yep it's unfair to expect people being out of pocket by quite a considerable amount every year, then reluctantly........... a new forum could be the answer.

I don't see anything wrong with forumotion.net, but if a better alternative can be found, so be it.

End of an era, sad times, but move on we must................one way or another.


--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: Sorontar on August 25, 2020, 10:57:33 am
If you want to see who are the moderators for Spare Goggles (and send Pheobsky an email - don't swamp them), go to https://sparegoggles.forumotion.net/g2-moderators

Sorontar

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: von Corax on August 25, 2020, 12:42:34 pm
As the person who's probably going to be doing this, let me address some of the comments above:

Quote from: Deimos on August 24, 2020, 10:30:35 pm
Also, the suggestion of moving the server out of the UK.... I have to agree with the Prof on this one too.
US isn't nearly so skittish when it comes to discussions about weapons, especially guns.
Oh, woke fragile snowflakes may start hyperventilating, : but they probably aren't interested in steampunk anyway, and would never see the posts.
As I understand it, the boxen which host BG are currently in a colocation facility in Texas. Colocation is expensive but made sense at the time; now, not so much. If I've intuited the issue with European access we are also using a Content Distribution Network which, again, made sense at the time but not so much now.

The prohibition against politics, religion and modern firearms were Tinkergirl's, and were imposed to prevent the sort of conflagration which caused Steampunk Magazine and the Gaslamp Bazaar forum to implode some years ago. With the excption of Admiral Wilhelm vs. The Tower, there have been few occasions of which I am aware for the moderators to enforce these prohibitions; this self-censorship appears to have become a cultural norm rather than a rule. (In My Humble Opinion, these Forbidden Topics have been given rather wider a berth than necessary; I have faith in the general maturity of BG netizens, and we have the moderators to prevent the snowflakes from snowballing.)


Quote from: Prof Marvel on August 25, 2020, 04:07:36 am
Yeah, nearly $1k per year for BG is not sustainable...
and BG needs to be updated/upgraded/and needs ongoing maintenance and and and

I did some quick looking and found some "stuff"
https://webhostinggeeks.com/best-forum-hosting

So there are affordable alternatives...

but migrating BG over to elsewhere could be a nightmare.
BG is friggin BEAUTIFUL! The rich graphics are AWSOME
but right now, its all about the remaining forum members and the ability to chat, share, stay in contact, etc..

Let's investigate Spare Goggles.
- It's not as pretty
- it doesn;t have the incredibly rich graphics
- maybe we can add some later, maybe not

but it's THERE and running. No real migration is required just to use "as is"

we need to know
1) what does it cost?
2) where is it hosted?
3) what are the limits? size, members, throughput, etc...
4) more etc

How do we alert the existing membership, I mean beyond a banner header page here?
Is there a feature on BG to send a mass mailing announcement to all members?

If not, can we access the memberlist?
it is simple to run a shell script ( sh or rsh ) to pull members who logged on in the last year or so,
then parse for their email (if any) then check the addr for legit
and send a mass "we are moving" email to what is left in there.

also... let us say this forum is put in ARCHIVE mode,
with a banner directing folks to spare goggles or whatever
is there any cost involved to archive BG?
how long will it last?

I think we also ought to archive the entire BrassGoggles forum to The WayBack machine (aka Internet Archives)
for posterity and the public good.

damnit I love this place and the people on it......


Spare Goggles has several plusses and problems, some of which I've pointed out already, but to summarize:

Plusses:

already exists
ad-supported, so no operating costs


Problems:

Pheobsky, the admin, has disappeared
no-one has been able to register since 2016
probably no way to import the current user database
no possibility of importing posts from BG
probably no control over what advertisements are shown


In short, moving to Spare Goggles, or to a replacement for Spare Goggles, means completely abandoning almost everything that makes Brass Goggles what it is.

Quote from: Prof Marvel on August 24, 2020, 09:58:57 am
Quote from: Deimos on August 24, 2020, 09:39:10 am
Quote from: J. Wilhelm on August 24, 2020, 09:26:56 am
....
I can't see anyone raising their hand right now, saying "yes, yes, I'll be the admin" if he/she doesn't even know how much money he/she will have to commit to pay in the future, yes? ...

Precisely. Discussing the various potential sources of revenue --or lack of them-- is very much germane to the conversation of folks offering to serve in admin positions.

Yes, this is EXACTLY the point. The duties are not so much the problem as procuring the needed revenue.

The current bill for keeping Brass Goggles as is runs about CA$1,030.00/year. This is obviously not sustainable, but there are other options. I currently master another web site for which the organization I work for pays CA$167.40/year (not counting domain registration) for a virtual web server, email service, not quite 100GB storage, unlimited bandwidth, PHP, and SSL. This should suffice for Brass Goggles given current traffic levels; that price (possibly plus some additional disk space) would put it in the ballpark of a personal/vanity site (which I suspect BG was originally for Tinkergirl), and is an amount I could probably stomach with any help at all. (I would need to see BG's current traffic and usage statistics, of course.)

The big challenge would be migrating to a new host. I would think this would involve first installing SMF 1.1.20 on the new host, dump/load the database, then (once things are running smoothly) upgrade the new host to a current version of SMF. I think with some help that I could foot the bill for the current host for as long as it takes to complete the move.

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: SeVeNeVeS on August 25, 2020, 02:52:09 pm
Quote from: von Corax on August 25, 2020, 12:42:34 pm
As the person who's probably going to be doing this,


So where is proteus?, swans in, drops a bombshell and buggers off again for 10 days and counting, how can we ask any questions?

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: J. Wilhelm on August 25, 2020, 05:15:43 pm
Quote from: von Corax on August 25, 2020, 12:42:34 pm
In short, moving to Spare Goggles, or to a replacement for Spare Goggles, means completely abandoning almost everything that makes Brass Goggles what it is.


Really?? I'm not sure I'd put it that way. To me, that's a formatting issue. Many of the most interesting threads are practically abandoned, and with the eventual loss of image servers, are also devoid of pictures! I could live with old threads being archived, just with appropriate links and pointers.

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: James Harrison on August 25, 2020, 05:36:42 pm
Quote from: Sorontar on August 25, 2020, 10:57:33 am
If you want to see who are the moderators for Spare Goggles (and send Pheobsky an email - don't swamp them), go to https://sparegoggles.forumotion.net/g2-moderators

Sorontar


Useful list, but I only know of one moderator there who has been active here in the recent past. The problem is that people move on, drift away, life happens and / or they no longer have time to manage, or even visit, the forum. I don't see that there is a solution to that, beyond perhaps making moderator status an elected position with a set lifespan and (say every 12 months) mods have to be elected/ re-elected.

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: J. Wilhelm on August 25, 2020, 09:12:34 pm
Quote from: von Corax on August 25, 2020, 12:42:34 pm
upgrade the new host to a current version of SMF. I think with some help that I could foot the bill for the current host for as long as it takes to complete the move.

So let's say we try to transplant Brassgoggles.co.uk to a smaller SMF based forum. Is there such a thing as a current version of SMF?

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: Deimos on August 25, 2020, 09:28:53 pm
Quote from: von Corax on August 25, 2020, 12:42:34 pm
...I have faith in the general maturity of BG netizens, and we have the moderators to prevent the snowflakes from snowballing....

"...prevent the snowflakes from snowballing"...omg that is a great line! ;D
I'm going to use it for everyday [real time] conversations (as needed).

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: J. Wilhelm on August 25, 2020, 10:24:50 pm
Quote from: James Harrison on August 25, 2020, 05:36:42 pm
Quote from: Sorontar on August 25, 2020, 10:57:33 am
If you want to see who are the moderators for Spare Goggles (and send Pheobsky an email - don't swamp them), go to https://sparegoggles.forumotion.net/g2-moderators

Sorontar


Useful list, but I only know of one moderator there who has been active here in the recent past. The problem is that people move on, drift away, life happens and / or they no longer have time to manage, or even visit, the forum. I don't see that there is a solution to that, beyond perhaps making moderator status an elected position with a set lifespan and (say every 12 months) mods have to be elected/ re-elected.
I'd propose that we elect a Prime Minister/Governor, to serve in the role of the executive, separate from the technical director in charge of the server (the Engineer General?) . Those are two different functions anyhow. Moderators can be re-elected. I don't suggest single term limits, because we *don't have that many people in the forum* :

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: Prof Marvel on August 25, 2020, 10:31:44 pm
my Dear Von Corax -

You are an Oak!
however did you get saddled with being "the person who's probably going to be doing this" ?

:-)

Quote from: J. Wilhelm on August 25, 2020, 09:12:34 pm
Quote from: von Corax on August 25, 2020, 12:42:34 pm
upgrade the new host to a current version of SMF. I think with some help that I could foot the bill for the current host for as long as it takes to complete the move.

So let's say we try to transplant Brassgoggles.co.uk to a smaller SMF based forum. Is there such a thing as a current version of SMF?




Good Question...

RE: Pheobsky

I did some looking for Herr Pheobsky last night. besides Spare Goggles i also found a presence on DeviantArt and some
public correspondence with another long-gone interesting fellow: ElShoggotho. Both have dissappeared from the Steampunk world ca ~ 2012.

I tried sending Pheobsky an email/PM via Spare goggles and Deviant Art, but have little hope since he also left DA
around 2011:

Information
Joined : 2008-09-12
Last visit : Thu Jan 06, 2011 4:57 am

He, along with a few others disappeared off the face of the Net around
the winter of 2011-2012. including his/their presence on Deviant Art, Flickr, and other venues...

This seems to happen to artistic and student types. As they graduate, change art forms, etc, they "move on" to "whatever", and sort of disappear into mundane life until free time & funds re-appear. Or choose to re-invent themselves entirely.

It does happen to a lot of us.

unfortunately for we who remain, in this age of interwebs it can mean things like SpareGoggles and/or Steampunk Mexico
(https://steampunk.forosactivos.net/ ) are abandonned and take on a crippled life of their own, continueing on somehow, unguided....

I have had a number of historical Muzzleloader forums disappear like that. One of my favorites, wher an insane amount of mid-1800's scientific data was discussed, went into archive mode, then was slated for EOL. Fortunately, the owner/operator
still maintained a presence elsewhere, and when I contacted him, he was so kind and gracious as to archive The Whole
Damn Forum onto a thunbdrive and send it to me!

I am STILL extracting valuable technical and historical threads and archiving them onto The Wayback Machine where
those of us who wish can link to ( yes I ended that sentence in a preposition!) .

Fortunately for us, when tinkergirl wandered off, BG ended up in the hands of Proteus ( and apparently Von Corax)
who kept the faith, maintained the forum , threw massive amounts of cash at it, and bravely manned the helm!


Unless a miracle occurs, and the PM/emails get to Pheobsky... and another miracle occurs and they choose to respond...
and another miracle occurs and they remember the passwords... it looks like Sparegoggles is not a choice.

Von Corax - you wrote
Quote
> As the person who's probably going to be doing this, let me address some of the comments above:

Apparently you have far more insight into the boiler room than the rest of us!

Are you willing (and able? without undue distress?) to take on such a migration, even with help from us?

I myself would like to see
a main boss (admin),
and 2 or 3 co-bosses (co-admins), all with access to master passwords to "fix stuff"
then a number of forum mods as before.

I would also like to see a contact list shared privately with the staff, not anywhere on the forum (security 101 ) .

I don't want to see the board down for a month or 2 because "someone forgot", or got hit by a truck, and nobody could contact nobody...

Also ... what J said..


Quote
snip-------------------------------
I'd propose that we elect a Prime Minister/Governor, to serve in the role of the executive, separate from the technical director in charge of the server (the Engineer General?) . Those are two different functions anyhow. Moderators can be re-elected. I don't suggest single term limits, because we *don't have that many people in the forum* Roll Eyes
endsnip----------------------------

Also... I don't want to see any feelings hurt on this, I don't want anyone thinking this is a Coup or Revolt....
but a community effort by those of us who are left and don't want our (admittedly) little club to die.


Von Corax wrote
Quote
snip--------------------------------------------------
but there are other options. I currently master another web site for which the organization I work for pays CA$167.40/year (not counting domain registration) for a virtual web server, email service, not quite 100GB storage, unlimited bandwidth, PHP, and SSL. This should suffice for Brass Goggles given current traffic levels; that price (possibly plus some additional disk space) would put it in the ballpark of a personal/vanity site (which I suspect BG was originally for Tinkergirl), and is an amount I could probably stomach with any help at all. (I would need to see BG's current traffic and usage statistics, of course.)

The big challenge would be migrating to a new host. I would think this would involve first installing SMF 1.1.20 on the new host, dump/load the database, then (once things are running smoothly) upgrade the new host to a current version of SMF. I think with some help that I could foot the bill for the current host for as long as it takes to complete the move.
endsnip---------------------------------------------------


this sounds like a viable and affordable option! I believe we here can assist both financially and with tech assistance
thru the transition. It would help to find out who current donors are... and see about some sort of committment from the
rest of us...

If a save/restore/convert of the existing BG is viable (with little pain) that would be outstanding.
If a limited save/restore to maintain at least some of the look and feel and memberlist is easier and less painful, I think
we can have the entire BG archived on The Wayback and reference any threads with links.

also, I believe that ads "might be" necessary ( sapre goggles and the Mexican site have been running with ads, unattended for ~ 8 years! ) and "can be" made palatable.

If any members have security or personal issues based on ads and bots I will gladly write a tutorial, Windows scripts, and/or coach them as req'd.

yhs
prof marvel

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: von Corax on August 25, 2020, 11:39:31 pm
Quote from: J. Wilhelm on August 25, 2020, 09:12:34 pm
Quote from: von Corax on August 25, 2020, 12:42:34 pm
upgrade the new host to a current version of SMF. I think with some help that I could foot the bill for the current host for as long as it takes to complete the move.

So let's say we try to transplant Brassgoggles.co.uk to a smaller SMF based forum. Is there such a thing as a current version of SMF?
According to the SMF web site, the current versions are 2.0.17 (stable) and 2.1RC2 (release candidate).


Quote from: Prof Marvel on August 25, 2020, 10:31:44 pm
I myself would like to see
a main boss (admin),
and 2 or 3 co-bosses (co-admins), all with access to master passwords to "fix stuff"
then a number of forum mods as before.

I would also like to see a contact list shared privately with the staff, not anywhere on the forum (security 101 ) .

I don't want to see the board down for a month or 2 because "someone forgot", or got hit by a truck, and nobody could contact nobody...

Also ... what J said..


Quote
snip-------------------------------
I'd propose that we elect a Prime Minister/Governor, to serve in the role of the executive, separate from the technical director in charge of the server (the Engineer General?) . Those are two different functions anyhow. Moderators can be re-elected. I don't suggest single term limits, because we *don't have that many people in the forum* Roll Eyes
endsnip----------------------------

Also... I don't want to see any feelings hurt on this, I don't want anyone thinking this is a Coup or Revolt....
but a community effort by those of us who are left and don't want our (admittedly) little club to die.

After Tinkergirl left, there were three Admins - proteus, S.Sprocket and Outa_Spaceman - and three Governors - Herr Döktor, Stella Gaslight and Siliconius Skumins. The Governors' role was to take over Tinkergirl's place, and to provide oversight of the Moderators, review and revise the rules, and to provide final ruling in any disputes. (Their role did not, however, include succession planning, apparently. Perhaps we can remedy that when we take over.) There is undoubtedly a Governors subboard much like the Moderators subboard, which will contain untold wealth and richesguidelines for governing. I agree that the new Leadership should exchange out-of-band contact information.

Quote from: Prof Marvel on August 25, 2020, 10:31:44 pm
Von Corax - you wrote
Quote
> As the person who's probably going to be doing this, let me address some of the comments above:

Apparently you have far more insight into the boiler room than the rest of us!

Are you willing (and able? without undue distress?) to take on such a migration, even with help from us?
I have very nearly abandoned my efforts to talk myself out of it.

Quote from: Deimos on August 25, 2020, 09:28:53 pm
Quote from: von Corax on August 25, 2020, 12:42:34 pm
...I have faith in the general maturity of BG netizens, and we have the moderators to prevent the snowflakes from snowballing....

"...prevent the snowflakes from snowballing"...omg that is a great line! ;D
I'm going to use it for everyday [real time] conversations (as needed).

Just for the record, while I do not accept "woke" as an adjective, I also do not (normally) agree with the current condescending use of "snowflake." That was me shooting from the lip.

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: Prof Marvel on August 26, 2020, 06:30:39 am
My dear Von Corax,
I am , and will be, eternally grateful for your efforts on this!
I would like to offer my help in whatever capacity would be useful and will certainly sign up for
a monthly contribution if we can set up paypal .

Quote from: von Corax on August 25, 2020, 11:39:31 pm
...
Just for the record, while I do not accept "woke" as an adjective, I also do not (normally) agree with the current condescending use of "snowflake." That was me shooting from the lip.

I agree that we all need to be "above" condescending behaviour and name calling in general... in spite of being guilty of it in the past...

Let us carry the baton forwards!

yhs
prof marvel

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: SeVeNeVeS on August 26, 2020, 12:11:00 pm
So I see Pheobsky logged in today, any updates or news on Spare Goggles we should know?

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: Pheobsky on August 26, 2020, 01:16:41 pm
Quote from: SeVeNeVeS on August 26, 2020, 12:11:00 pm
So I see Pheobsky logged in today, any updates or news on Spare Goggles we should know?

I'll give a more full update & work out what I'm actually doing when I've got a bit more time (probably tomorow)
However general gist-

I'm trying to get my account for spare goggles reset, but it's being a bugger! (seems if you initially set up the forum it won't allow you to just reset password, or something like that!)
Once I've got that sorted I'm happy to hand over the reins to any of the current admins
Things are all a bit busy for me so I may be a bit slow at replying/moving things on (Sorry in advance!)


--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: SeVeNeVeS on August 26, 2020, 01:35:50 pm
Quote from: Pheobsky on August 26, 2020, 01:16:41 pm
Quote from: SeVeNeVeS on August 26, 2020, 12:11:00 pm
So I see Pheobsky logged in today, any updates or news on Spare Goggles we should know?

I'll give a more full update & work out what I'm actually doing when I've got a bit more time (probably tomorow)
However general gist-

I'm trying to get my account for spare goggles reset, but it's being a bugger! (seems if you initially set up the forum it won't allow you to just reset password, or something like that!)
Once I've got that sorted I'm happy to hand over the reins to any of the current admins
Things are all a bit busy for me so I may be a bit slow at replying/moving things on (Sorry in advance!)

Thank you so much for taking the time and what appears to be considerable effort to sort this out.
Very much appreciated, and if not too presumptuous, I think everyone else here thanks you also.

And as a side note, thank you Prof Marvel for being able to contact Pheobsky, spare Goggles may be salvageable after all as a result......




--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: Prof Marvel on August 27, 2020, 02:14:32 am

hooooraYyyy

our eternal thanks to all involved, we may yet see our way through this thing!

your humble servant

prof marvel


(sr sys admin, retired;
sr sap-on-oracle admin, retired;
unix kernel support, retired;
unix security, retired;
application software developer (patents) , retired;
flight systems software developer, retired;
amateur machinist, blacksmith, woodworker, knifesmith, potter (in progress)
home computer butcher (ongoing)
home remodeler (in progress)
aspiring steampunk architect (in progress)
aspiring buddhist (in progress))

gawd i'm bloody tired



--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: J. Wilhelm on August 27, 2020, 03:26:19 pm
Quote from: Pheobsky on August 26, 2020, 01:16:41 pm
Quote from: SeVeNeVeS on August 26, 2020, 12:11:00 pm
So I see Pheobsky logged in today, any updates or news on Spare Goggles we should know?

I'll give a more full update & work out what I'm actually doing when I've got a bit more time (probably tomorow)
However general gist-

I'm trying to get my account for spare goggles reset, but it's being a bugger! (seems if you initially set up the forum it won't allow you to just reset password, or something like that!)
Once I've got that sorted I'm happy to hand over the reins to any of the current admins
Things are all a bit busy for me so I may be a bit slow at replying/moving things on (Sorry in advance!)


Phoebsky! Welcome back, this is phabulous! - Sorry, I couldn't resist!

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: Deimos on August 28, 2020, 08:56:09 am
Quote from: J. Wilhelm on August 27, 2020, 03:26:19 pm

Phoebsky! Welcome back, this is phabulous! - Sorry, I couldn't resist!

Phoebsky, please phorgive JW's lame attempt to be phunny.

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: SeVeNeVeS on August 28, 2020, 09:19:18 am
Gaaaagh! The gnu thread re-visited. :-\ http://brassgoggles.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,34064.0.html (http://brassgoggles.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,34064.0.html)

Phlipping Phantastic. ;D



--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: Deimos on August 28, 2020, 09:36:49 am
Quote from: SeVeNeVeS on August 28, 2020, 09:19:18 am
Gaaaagh! The gnu thread re-visited. :-\ http://brassgoggles.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,34064.0.html (http://brassgoggles.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,34064.0.html)

Phlipping Phantastic. ;D


What is more fenomenal is that you recall a thread that phar back








--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: Prof Marvel on August 28, 2020, 09:39:50 am
Quote from: Deimos on August 28, 2020, 09:36:49 am
Quote from: SeVeNeVeS on August 28, 2020, 09:19:18 am
Gaaaagh! The gnu thread re-visited. :-\ http://brassgoggles.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,34064.0.html (http://brassgoggles.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,34064.0.html)

Phlipping Phantastic. ;D


What is more fenomenal is that you recall a thread that phar back



"That Long"?
Heavenly carbunckles, it seems like only a few days weeks months ago....

yhs
prof marvel

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: SeVeNeVeS on August 28, 2020, 10:43:54 am
Quote from: Deimos on August 28, 2020, 09:36:49 am
Quote from: SeVeNeVeS on August 28, 2020, 09:19:18 am
Gaaaagh! The gnu thread re-visited. :-\ http://brassgoggles.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,34064.0.html (http://brassgoggles.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,34064.0.html)

Phlipping Phantastic. ;D


What is more fenomenal is that you recall a thread that phar back
clever, I like.

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: J. Wilhelm on August 28, 2020, 11:34:03 pm
Quote from: SeVeNeVeS on August 28, 2020, 09:19:18 am
Gaaaagh! The gnu thread re-visited. :-\ http://brassgoggles.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,34064.0.html (http://brassgoggles.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,34064.0.html)

Phlipping Phantastic. ;D




Oh, phor God's sakes, gnot again! Leave the gnu thread in the past!

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: Deimos on August 29, 2020, 01:54:41 am
Quote from: J. Wilhelm on August 28, 2020, 11:34:03 pm
Quote from: SeVeNeVeS on August 28, 2020, 09:19:18 am
Gaaaagh! The gnu thread re-visited. :-\ http://brassgoggles.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,34064.0.html (http://brassgoggles.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,34064.0.html)

Phlipping Phantastic. ;D




Oh, phor God's sakes, gnot again! Leave the gnu thread in the past!


Gno.

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: SeVeNeVeS on August 29, 2020, 12:30:39 pm
Quote from: J. Wilhelm on August 28, 2020, 11:34:03 pm


Oh, phor God's sakes, gnot again! Leave the gnu thread in the past!
I do believe you started this silliness again, my dear JW. ??? ;D

Quote from: Deimos on August 28, 2020, 08:56:09 am
Quote from: J. Wilhelm on August 27, 2020, 03:26:19 pm

Phoebsky! Welcome back, this is phabulous! - Sorry, I couldn't resist!

Phoebsky, please phorgive JW's lame attempt to be phunny.

Quote from: Deimos on August 29, 2020, 01:54:41 am
Gno.
Shouldn't that be....... Gnot on your Gnelly?

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: Pheobsky on August 29, 2020, 03:11:34 pm
Those are glorious puns!!

Ok so in the end somehow I manged to remember my password (mainly through a lot of lucky guesses!)
If the mods want to send me a message- I can easily to make someone a mod or admin, but not sure if I'll be able to hand over everything? I'll give it a crack though. Incidentally have made Herr Döktor an admin & I think Stella already is
Even if you don't end up relocating to sparegoggles it's probably worth someone having the keys.

As for the clunky graphics, I threw them together as a teenager so I'm sure it'll be easy to greatly improve on them! ^^

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: Pheobsky on August 29, 2020, 04:24:25 pm
Ah, I have a simple solution - I have changed the username my founder's account from 'Pheobsky' to 'Administrator' & can simply hand the login details to the mods here, they can change the associated email to whatever they wish.

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: Deimos on August 29, 2020, 05:07:48 pm
Quote from: Pheobsky on August 29, 2020, 04:24:25 pm
Ah, I have a simple solution - I have changed the username my founder's account from 'Pheobsky' to 'Administrator' & can simply hand the login details to the mods here, they can change the associated email to whatever they wish.


Pheobsky delivers! Three huzzahs! (Or maybe phour? )

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: Siliconous Skumins on August 29, 2020, 05:35:34 pm
Quote from: von Corax on August 25, 2020, 11:39:31 pm

... There is undoubtedly a Governors subboard much like the Moderators subboard, which will contain untold wealth and richesguidelines for governing.

Err, sadly NO... just our common shared Moderators club house. The Govs are simply Mods with extra powers (not that many as it happens). With a bit of "questionable" modifications, a Governor can make *some* forum changes and possible upgrades, but due to the lack of complete control that an Admin has, I would not suggest this to be a good idea...


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


OK, so I have been reading this thread and mulling it over for the past week. I did a bit of pricing up and I unfortunately came to the conclusion that I simply cannot afford to take over full payment of the forum. The current costs are roughly £600 a year give or take depending on interest / conversion rates, so about an extra £50 per month for me to find Due to Tax issues and other payment / donation related issues, simply receiving funding via Ad revenue or from member contributions / fees, is also right out of the question. I already have enough financial issues being a Landlord in the current climate, the added complexity of running something that technically is another source of income that I will have to pay tax on, is simply a non starter.

Then there is also the issues regarding EU / UK laws on GDPR and browser Cookies etc. For Me this is a killer - I already have enough issues to deal with regarding GDPR, I don't need to add to the headache with sorting out a working legal consent agreement framework for Cookies / tracking and the various associated EU /UK rules and laws.
This pretty much makes running Ads on BG a potential nightmare for whoever owns the domain! BG would likely have to be run as a legitimate registered 'Limited Liability' business, and then your into business TAX issues etc... :


However.....There does exist one possibility that I could potentially afford to provide - and this depend HEAVILY on the monthly data bandwidth requirements - I should be able to completely take over the hosting and domain registration *IF* I drop the co-location and hosting service and run the forum from my own hardware and upgrade to a business internet connection. This means I would be running BG from a server I built myself, have complete control over and fund directly. I'm already a registered "Data Handler" for GDPR reasons, so that part is already taken care of.

Self-hosting is something that I could realistically do, and provide for free to all*

* (bandwidth restrictions may be a possibility - though doubtful these days).


Also, I think this may be a good time to call time on our current SMF software. If I can take over, then I would be looking towards locking this version of the forum into "READ ONLY" mode for archive purposes and then building a new forum with as much of the old forum links / info etc as possible. Somehow integrate various sections of the old forum into relevant links in the new forum sections. Possibly attempt to extract some of the more important threads and integrate them natively into the new forum...


Any comments or questions on anything I have written here?

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: Mercury Wells on August 29, 2020, 05:36:14 pm
Quote from: Deimos on August 29, 2020, 05:07:48 pm
Quote from: Pheobsky on August 29, 2020, 04:24:25 pm
Ah, I have a simple solution - I have changed the username my founder's account from 'Pheobsky' to 'Administrator' & can simply hand the login details to the mods here, they can change the associated email to whatever they wish.


Pheobsky delivers! Three huzzahs! (Or maybe phour? )

High phives all round, then?

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: Deimos on August 29, 2020, 05:39:50 pm
Quote from: Mercury Wells on August 29, 2020, 05:36:14 pm
High phives all round, then?

omg...That is great! veeeerrrrry cleveeeeerrr! Wish I had said that!

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: SeVeNeVeS on August 30, 2020, 02:43:16 pm
Quote from: Siliconous Skumins on August 29, 2020, 05:35:34 pm
Quote from: von Corax on August 25, 2020, 11:39:31 pm

... There is undoubtedly a Governors subboard much like the Moderators subboard, which will contain untold wealth and richesguidelines for governing.

Err, sadly NO... just our common shared Moderators club house. The Govs are simply Mods with extra powers (not that many as it happens). With a bit of "questionable" modifications, a Governor can make *some* forum changes and possible upgrades, but due to the lack of complete control that an Admin has, I would not suggest this to be a good idea...


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


OK, so I have been reading this thread and mulling it over for the past week. I did a bit of pricing up and I unfortunately came to the conclusion that I simply cannot afford to take over full payment of the forum. The current costs are roughly £600 a year give or take depending on interest / conversion rates, so about an extra £50 per month for me to find Due to Tax issues and other payment / donation related issues, simply receiving funding via Ad revenue or from member contributions / fees, is also right out of the question. I already have enough financial issues being a Landlord in the current climate, the added complexity of running something that technically is another source of income that I will have to pay tax on, is simply a non starter.

Then there is also the issues regarding EU / UK laws on GDPR and browser Cookies etc. For Me this is a killer - I already have enough issues to deal with regarding GDPR, I don't need to add to the headache with sorting out a working legal consent agreement framework for Cookies / tracking and the various associated EU /UK rules and laws.
This pretty much makes running Ads on BG a potential nightmare for whoever owns the domain! BG would likely have to be run as a legitimate registered 'Limited Liability' business, and then your into business TAX issues etc... :


However.....There does exist one possibility that I could potentially afford to provide - and this depend HEAVILY on the monthly data bandwidth requirements - I should be able to completely take over the hosting and domain registration *IF* I drop the co-location and hosting service and run the forum from my own hardware and upgrade to a business internet connection. This means I would be running BG from a server I built myself, have complete control over and fund directly. I'm already a registered "Data Handler" for GDPR reasons, so that part is already taken care of.

Self-hosting is something that I could realistically do, and provide for free to all*

* (bandwidth restrictions may be a possibility - though doubtful these days).


Also, I think this may be a good time to call time on our current SMF software. If I can take over, then I would be looking towards locking this version of the forum into "READ ONLY" mode for archive purposes and then building a new forum with as much of the old forum links / info etc as possible. Somehow integrate various sections of the old forum into relevant links in the new forum sections. Possibly attempt to extract some of the more important threads and integrate them natively into the new forum...


Any comments or questions on anything I have written here?
I would prefer in an ideal world the forum be kept in tact, as is, but this is another option to be thought about. BTW, Good to see you back again Siliconous Skumins.

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: Deimos on August 30, 2020, 07:08:35 pm
*looks up from playing in the sandbox* Huh? ...
Meaning, I'm totally ignorant of how all this works ("Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic" ..or something like that) .
Whatever you all need to do to keep BG running, all I have to say is: Press On!.. Oh, and Thank You!

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: J. Wilhelm on August 30, 2020, 09:25:34 pm

Hear ye, hear ye!

Order! *hammers gavel on the bench* Oooorder!

Alright... So this is what we have as far I can discern. And correct me if I'm wrong, but we have 3 options


1. Running a privately run server from the UK, specifically by a brassgoggles.co.uk member is the latest option that Mr. Skummins has set forth. The server is owned by Mr. Skummins, it's not operated by any internet hosting service whatsoever. It does require freezing the current brassgoggles forum into a read only mode (isn't that the same as we'd have to do should we move to an ad supported forum though?)

2. The other option was set by forth by Von Corax: hosting on a BG member funded commercial server albeit with with lower capacity than the system which is hosting is now, but with a fairly low cost compared to the current provider. An updated version of the SMF software would be provided (SMF 2.x.x?) so the brassgoggles forum functionality would remain intact. The additional advantage being that the commercially hosted server would most likely be located in the Americas hence less regulation.

3. The third option is to move to an ad supported platform like sparegoggles at forumotion.net or equivalent. Bandwidth and storage are low, but it always runs in updated software, and it's 100 % free, thus guaranteeing the forum's existence for many years into the future, and brassgoggles is not tied to the fate of a single individual. While the members are not required to provide funding, we can't export brassgoggles' SMF database to the new forum. Thus the current BG will remain just an archive we can reach by way of links. One idea is simply to move to sparegoggles.forumotion.net, which is already running and Phoebsky has provided us with a set of keys to the venue. BTW, we need to respond to Phoebsky on this, as they graciously have come back to hand over the keys.

Please ladies and gentlemen, restart your deliberations! We can continue our puns elsewhere in the forum!

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: Deimos on August 30, 2020, 09:45:26 pm
So will there be a poll set up for this...eventually?

Right now I'd have to go for Door #3.... I don't like ads (hate 'em, hate 'em, hate them) but moving to Sparegoggles seems to be the only practical way to ensure
BG's continuance, both from and infrastructure aspect and a financial aspect.

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: J. Wilhelm on August 30, 2020, 09:51:03 pm
Quote from: Deimos on August 30, 2020, 09:45:26 pm
So will there be a poll set up for this...eventually?

Right now I'd have to go for Door #3.... I don't like ads (hate 'em, hate 'em, hate them) but moving to Sparegoggles seems to be the only practical way to ensure
BG's continuance, both from and infrastructure aspect and a financial aspect.

I concurr. Besides the money, and old software, the problem is that the administrators eventually leave, and when the forum runs aground there's no one in the machine room to fix things.

Von Corax' solution is my second option though, if he can pull it off. It seems to be an ideal in terms of preserving brassgoggles.co.uk as it is.

As much as I like the idea of a brassgoggles member running a server from his house, and being 100% independent, there's an inherent risk that failure (eg power failure, death, revolution, zombie apocalypse, or somebody sneezed on you and you died of COVID) would shut down brassgoggles.co.uk with no recourse at hand.

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: Deimos on August 30, 2020, 10:17:20 pm
Quote from: J. Wilhelm on August 30, 2020, 09:51:03 pm
....

Von Corax' solution is my second option though, if he can pull it off. It seems to be an ideal in terms of preserving brassgoggles.co.uk as it is.

As much as I like the idea of a brassgoggles member running a server from his house, and being 100% independent, there's an inherent risk that failure (eg power failure, death, revolution, zombie apocalypse, or somebody sneezed on you and you died of COVID) would shut down brassgoggles.co.uk with no recourse at hand.

Ditto for Door#2 .... Hard practicalities aside I am all for von Corax running the machinery....except we'd have to have his clone in a closet somewhere precisely for all the contingencies you mention :-p

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: Sorontar on August 31, 2020, 12:23:11 am
If we need a formal poll, run one.

If those are the three options (and they sound like reasonable implementations of the options being dicussed so far), then I think 3, 2, 1.
For 3, the ads are an annoyance, but BG is not reliant on them so individuals can ignore or filter them. The only condition is that there has to be some way of the mod/admin team being able to report in appropriate ads to the host.
For 2, the cost is an issue but the support and backup of being "commercially hosted" is important.
For 1, it is big risk if things go belly up. While I would commend any BG member who is prepared to comit to hosting it, it won't be part of a network and have the security and reliability that we would expect from 3 or 2.

For 3, I am sure we could get the new site established, then post a single "we're moving" email to all the contact emails of the present BG members. If need be, we could possibly set up accounts in the new site for all the current usernames that have posted with the contact details and tell current BG members they have to go to the new site and either 1) create a new username (if they want a change) or 2) use the current name and do an "I have forgotten my password" check to get in and set a new password. Of course, throughout this, only the admins should have access to the contact details of members.

Sorontar

Sorontar

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: von Corax on August 31, 2020, 01:15:01 am
One more point in favour of #2 is that, if necessary, it could eventually be converted to an ad-supported model.It would not be perfect, however, as there would be either too much revenue or too little, and in either case someone would need to deal with it. On Forumotion (option #3), if there's too much ad revenue they pocket the difference, and if there's too little they can simply pull the plug.

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: J. Wilhelm on August 31, 2020, 01:57:44 am
A strange thought occurred to me. By way of links, "pointers" and purchased domain names one can link one forum to another. Thinkoof them as passageways. I was wondering whether Brassgoggles could exist as a network of forums, with registration taking place within a core forum, the Archive being an "adjacent" venue, likea Library, and as the forum grows continue acquiring venues to form a "Steampunk Campus."

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: SeVeNeVeS on August 31, 2020, 07:46:01 am
Looks like spare goggles' settings have been jiggled a little by Pheobsky

New member registered 2020-08-29.

I would say if not already registered, give it a go. :-\

https://sparegoggles.forumotion.net/

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: J. Wilhelm on August 31, 2020, 10:25:47 am
Quote from: SeVeNeVeS on August 31, 2020, 07:46:01 am
Looks like spare goggles' settings have been jiggled a little by Pheobsky

New member registered 2020-08-29.

I would say if not already registered, give it a go. :-\

https://sparegoggles.forumotion.net/

Every one should register. Will make communication easier later.

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: SeVeNeVeS on August 31, 2020, 10:44:48 am
Quote from: J. Wilhelm on August 31, 2020, 10:25:47 am
Quote from: SeVeNeVeS on August 31, 2020, 07:46:01 am
Looks like spare goggles' settings have been jiggled a little by Pheobsky

New member registered 2020-08-29.

I would say if not already registered, give it a go. :-\

https://sparegoggles.forumotion.net/

Every one should register. Will make communication easier later.
As a further experiment, I have just registered with a different name and e-mail address, awaiting admin conformation e-mail at the mo'. 10.45 UK time 31.08.20

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: Cora Courcelle on August 31, 2020, 04:17:05 pm
Quote from: SeVeNeVeS on August 31, 2020, 07:46:01 am
Looks like spare goggles' settings have been jiggled a little by Pheobsky

New member registered 2020-08-29.

I would say if not already registered, give it a go. :-\

https://sparegoggles.forumotion.net/

That would be me then, mind you its so long since I originally tried to register at spare goggles that I'd forgotten the password, however it seems to have accepted the whole 'forgot your password' rigmarole and I logged on OK.

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: Deimos on August 31, 2020, 07:18:10 pm
I just registered also...same name and email....waiting "Admin Confirmation"

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: Prof Marvel on August 31, 2020, 10:56:38 pm
My preferences

Start with #3, spare goggles
- switch to this first, use links & archives, & etc
- get admin & mods changed over to new team if possible
- run with spare goggles and get the cost of BG off of members
- see how it goes and AT WORST it will buy us time for

possible option 2
Von Corax setting up "something else" ....

yhs
prof marvel

PS has anyone else ever used The Wayback Machine to archive an entire forum?


--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: Pheobsky on September 01, 2020, 02:14:06 pm
Sparegoggles has now been handed over My last little tweak before I left was to make it so you can register without mod approval.

...I am out of touch & no longer a regular on the forum, so take this with a pinch of salt.... Regardless of where the main forum ends up, I would council you to retain an established backup location. Whether that is the facebook page, sparegoggles or an underground bunker somewhere north of reykjavik... it just means that if anything happens, you have a way of working out what happened & how to proceed.



--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: James Harrison on September 01, 2020, 05:21:23 pm
I vote for underground bunker north of Reykjavik.

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: Cora Courcelle on September 01, 2020, 05:54:37 pm
Quote from: James Harrison on September 01, 2020, 05:21:23 pm
I vote for underground bunker north of Reykjavik.

Eg er sammala!

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: Prof Marvel on September 02, 2020, 01:50:47 am
Quote from: Pheobsky on September 01, 2020, 02:14:06 pm
Sparegoggles has now been handed over My last little tweak before I left was to make it so you can register without mod approval.

...I am out of touch & no longer a regular on the forum, so take this with a pinch of salt.... Regardless of where the main forum ends up, I would council you to retain an established backup location. Whether that is the facebook page, sparegoggles or an underground bunker somewhere north of reykjavik... it just means that if anything happens, you have a way of working out what happened & how to proceed.


Our Eternal Thanks Pheobsky!

Who is the new SpareGoggles Boss?

Go In Peace,
Live Long and prosper,
Don't Sweat the Small Stuff,
Non Carborundum Illigitimi

prf mrvl

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: Deimos on September 02, 2020, 02:03:35 am
Quote from: Prof Marvel on September 02, 2020, 01:50:47 am
Quote from: Pheobsky on September 01, 2020, 02:14:06 pm
Sparegoggles has now been handed over My last little tweak before I left was to make it so you can register without mod approval.

Our Eternal Thanks Pheobsky!

Who is the new SpareGoggles Boss?

Go In Peace,
Live Long and prosper,
Don't Sweat the Small Stuff,
Non Carborundum Illigitimi

prf mrvl

You forgot: "Farewell, and may the blessing of Elves and Men and all Free Folk go with you."

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: J. Wilhelm on September 02, 2020, 02:52:08 am
May your path be free form Orcs... What? It' just seemed the right thing to say!

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: Prof Marvel on September 02, 2020, 03:56:37 am
Quote from: J. Wilhelm on September 02, 2020, 02:52:08 am
May your path be free form Orcs... What? .....!

ummmmm

Free Form Orcs?

are they all like , um, Blobby Orcs, or more like Picasso Orcs?

prf mvl

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: von Corax on September 02, 2020, 08:48:44 am
Quote from: Prof Marvel on September 02, 2020, 03:56:37 am
Quote from: J. Wilhelm on September 02, 2020, 02:52:08 am
May your path be free form Orcs... What? .....!

ummmmm

Free Form Orcs?

are they all like , um, Blobby Orcs, or more like Picasso Orcs?

prf mvl
Orcs doing parkour?

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: Cora Courcelle on September 02, 2020, 09:28:16 am
Quote from: von Corax on September 02, 2020, 08:48:44 am

Orcs doing parkour?

They would be sooooo good at that, and if they met an obstacle they couldn't go over they'd either go through it or knock it down ;D

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: J. Wilhelm on September 02, 2020, 10:00:40 am
I meant "rom." ;D Well, it's not like Orcs had much discipline anyway. I guess Orcs could be free-form.

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: Prof Marvel on September 03, 2020, 06:17:16 am
Does anyone know if we have a New Admin for the SpareGoggles ?

yhs
prof marvel

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: Kensington Locke on September 03, 2020, 05:33:15 pm
Quote from: J. Wilhelm on August 17, 2020, 06:14:46 am
Quote from: Madasasteamfish on August 15, 2020, 12:58:12 pm
I agree with the idea of subscriptions based service over ads if a dedicated revenue stream is required to keep the lights on and things running (although we should probably ask the membership before we move to that model).

Exactly. Put it to a vote after comparing to ad supported sites - just look at sparegoggles.forumotion.net!

I know ads are unpalatable, but we must be practical about this. What ads are we afraid of? It's not like we're moving to Facebook... With all the stuff that is happening you never know.

Ads today aren't like the old days. You put a rectangle on your page and Google puts whatever they want on their based on the user's history with Google. So not moderating ads or making deals with vendors to run ads.

Or you cut specific deals with vendors like Steampunk Emporium and run ads for their stuff because they cut a big check.

Or you do a hybrid, free accounts get ads, paid accounts don't.

Specking of check, how much does it cost to run this place? How much does it take in on donations?

If you're looking for an admin for someone to take over ownership, financials are key.


--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: Siliconous Skumins on September 04, 2020, 03:20:01 am
Well, from my point of view as a long time forum user.... Wouldn't be too keen on moving permanently to an Ad funded "free" forum. These are not really meant for the large storage and bandwidth requirements of active forums, instead it's meant more as a way to generate the domain owner essentially "free" revenue from visitors to small specific interest groups (pets, unofficial fan based topics, foods, clubhouse / special interest groups from another site, etc). The adverts generally only pay out for unique "clicks" and tend to either lower funding or stop it altogether once the same IPs are repeatedly being seen by the ad server. This has an impact on what is profitable and not, and you can be sure that ANY forum that is using more storage and data bandwidth than it earns through Ad revenue, will be either restricted or s**t-caned PDQ....

Also if the likes of forummotion or other free forum providers have any technical issues, it is very unlikely that we would be able to report or expect a fix to problems we encounter, given that these sites are often not actively maintained by an individual we can contact. If the site Admins deem the quick / cheapest fix to a problem is to wipe the database, expect this to happen without warning!

Free forums are a lifeboat, or floating debris at best......we need a ship.



My vote would be For Von Corax to take over and arrange new hosting that is more inline with our current requirements. I am happy to help with this however I can.


Sadly I am no longer in touch with someone who could have provided us with a heavily discounted hosting package, and we are talking real 'high tier' commercial grade hosting in the USA too.
A number of years ago when BG was having issues with bandwidth, I was able to quickly arrange a pretty sweet deal, however the powers that be had already arranged to move BG to a new hosting company (which didn't last too long either - we were a big forum back in the day). I offered twice over the years, but nobody was interested / had other plans, and so I stopped offering my help. I haven't spoken to my contact in about seven years, and no idea where to find them now. :-\

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: SeVeNeVeS on September 04, 2020, 07:41:26 am
Quote from: Pheobsky on September 01, 2020, 02:14:06 pm
Sparegoggles has now been handed over.
To who?
Quote from: Prof Marvel on September 03, 2020, 06:17:16 am
Does anyone know if we have a New Admin for the SpareGoggles ?

yhs
prof marvel
?

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: Pheobsky on September 04, 2020, 04:50:51 pm
Quote from: SeVeNeVeS on September 04, 2020, 07:41:26 am
Quote from: Pheobsky on September 01, 2020, 02:14:06 pm
Sparegoggles has now been handed over.
To who?
Quote from: Prof Marvel on September 03, 2020, 06:17:16 am
Does anyone know if we have a New Admin for the SpareGoggles ?

yhs
prof marvel
?

I handed the details to Stella to pop in the general mod forum

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: SeVeNeVeS on September 04, 2020, 05:13:24 pm
So it seems another, not so currently active member as Admin then.

http://brassgoggles.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=2178 (http://brassgoggles.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=2178)

I suppose almost 2 months vacant is better than some.

Many thanks for your efforts of late Pheobsky, much appreciated my friend.

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: MWBailey on September 04, 2020, 09:11:26 pm
Quote from: Deimos on August 29, 2020, 05:39:50 pm
Quote from: Mercury Wells on August 29, 2020, 05:36:14 pm
High phives all round, then?

omg...That is great! veeeerrrrry cleveeeeerrr! Wish I had said that!



Pheobsky you phine phellow, how haph you been? Glad to hear you're phixing up SG!

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: J. Wilhelm on September 05, 2020, 01:22:46 am
Quote from: SeVeNeVeS on September 04, 2020, 05:13:24 pm
So it seems another, not so currently active member as Admin then.

http://brassgoggles.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=2178 (http://brassgoggles.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=2178)

I suppose almost 2 months vacant is better than some.

Many thanks for your efforts of late Pheobsky, much appreciated my friend.


Unfortunately we haven't heard from Stella yet. The moderator section has no posts on the subject.

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: MWBailey on September 05, 2020, 03:46:01 am
Quote from: J. Wilhelm on September 05, 2020, 01:22:46 am
Quote from: SeVeNeVeS on September 04, 2020, 05:13:24 pm
So it seems another, not so currently active member as Admin then.

http://brassgoggles.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=2178 (http://brassgoggles.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=2178)

I suppose almost 2 months vacant is better than some.

Many thanks for your efforts of late Pheobsky, much appreciated my friend.


Unfortunately we haven't heard from Stella yet. The moderator section has no posts on the subject.




Just shot an email to Stella re this discussion. Haven't corresponded with her since a month past, so not sure how she's faring.

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: Stella Gaslight on September 05, 2020, 04:28:52 am
Hi long time no see. My world has been a bit turned upside down for a bit with an ailing husband who passed this year and my own health problems. I am here but not able to devote as much time as in the past MS is exhausting but I will do what I can to help.

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: J. Wilhelm on September 05, 2020, 07:52:38 am
Quote from: Stella Gaslight on September 05, 2020, 04:28:52 am
Hi long time no see. My world has been a bit turned upside down for a bit with an ailing husband who passed this year and my own health problems. I am here but not able to devote as much time as in the past MS is exhausting but I will do what I can to help.

I'm very sorry to hear about your husband, Stella. My condolences. We'll get this BG move sorted out.

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: SeVeNeVeS on September 05, 2020, 05:32:17 pm
So nothing has really changed that much, Stella will just watch the forum, I was kinda hoping a bit of a jiggle might be on the cards, ditch not current mods, maybe a bit of a major makeover....... Not gonna happen then?

Sorry to hear about the loss of your husband, Stella, I add my condolences, sh!t like that is hard, I know from experience.

Well at least the lifeboat floats again, that is good.


--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: J. Wilhelm on September 05, 2020, 06:22:15 pm
Quote from: SeVeNeVeS on September 05, 2020, 05:32:17 pm
So nothing has really changed that much, Stella will just watch the forum, I was kinda hoping a bit of a jiggle might be on the cards, ditch not current mods, maybe a bit of a major makeover....... Not gonna happen then?

SNIP


I don't think the structure of the administration has even been settled yet. We threw some ideas around as to what would be good for the new forum, namely at least 3 administrators, elected with a chief executive and a technical engineer to maintain the server or account.

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: von Corax on September 05, 2020, 06:34:55 pm
Just for the record, I've almost run out of excuses; I'm just trying to establish communications with proteus before I definitively say "Yes."

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: SeVeNeVeS on September 05, 2020, 07:20:05 pm
Quote from: J. Wilhelm on September 05, 2020, 06:22:15 pm
Quote from: SeVeNeVeS on September 05, 2020, 05:32:17 pm
So nothing has really changed that much, Stella will just watch the forum, I was kinda hoping a bit of a jiggle might be on the cards, ditch not current mods, maybe a bit of a major makeover....... Not gonna happen then?

SNIP


I don't think the structure of the administration has even been settled yet. We threw some ideas around as to what would be good for the new forum, namely at least 3 administrators, elected with a chief executive and a technical engineer to maintain the server or account.
I didn't make myself clear, I was talking about sparegoggles there.

Quote from: von Corax on September 05, 2020, 06:34:55 pm
Just for the record, I've almost run out of excuses; I'm just trying to establish communications with proteus before I definitively say "Yes."
Great news, I fully back you 100% if you decide to become our new leader. fingers crossed you can contact the somewhat illusive Proteus.

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: Siliconous Skumins on September 05, 2020, 08:06:33 pm
After looking into various web-hosting companies, I have noticed several that look to be 'interesting' in the prices. I really need to get in touch with Proteus and find out just how much bandwidth and storage we need for the forum - I have a feeling that we may be able to save a bit of expense due to lower forum usage rates these days...

Von Corax : If you don't continue with the take over, I think I just might be able to find something I can comfortably afford. So that's another option.

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: yereverluvinunclebert on September 07, 2020, 11:11:01 pm
Chaps, I have some hosting experience using TSOhosts. I used to run a lot of sites simultaneously, CMS systems, blogs &c and they had some good hosting plans. More importantly, their support was generally good and they could be flexible, sometimes bending over backwards to help.

Whether the costs are still comparable to others, I can't say anymore as I haven't used them for a while but from my perspective uptime was important and support is vital to maintaining that. A good cpanel was a useful platform for hosting a site and that is what what I would recommend. Cpanel is the command and control centre for your site.

I can offer email/online assistance to anyone setting up some hosting as I had a lot of experience in this area but I can't do it all due to family and business/project commitments elsewhere.

I'd be happy to advise and be part of the team that could work together to pull this off. I'm just offering my help but not more. I've been around BG for a few years here and I'd be happy to donate a one-off donation of say £20-£30 to get the ball rolling.

J.Wilhelm and a few others will vouch for me and my 'puter skills. I was previously a web designer and host myself but that ball has rolled on and I'm into other stuff now.


--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: yereverluvinunclebert on September 07, 2020, 11:15:47 pm
Tsohosts offer unlimited bandwidth plans at no extra cost. That would seem to be the way to go. From experience I suggest it would be very wise to let them know the traffic beforehand, both averages and peaks, also the disc space usage. Some CMS systems cache the sites to obtain faster throughput and that can heavily affect disc usage.

I see that Von Corax has the technical side well sorted but I'd be happy to chat if it would help.

Might it be wise to set up a chat somewhere and let the interested parties talk? I am in the UK.

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: von Corax on September 07, 2020, 11:45:21 pm
Stella Gaslight has given me an email address for proteus. I'm just waiting to see him answer; once that happens we'll be able to make solid plans.

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: yereverluvinunclebert on September 08, 2020, 11:34:52 am
Feel free to include me in on any advisory group you choose to set up. I won't tread on your toes but it might be useful to have someone who knows what you are doing to chat with or assist in some small way. I don't want to take on the whole thing but I'm impressed that you do.

A fee-based site or donations is always a troublesome aspect. Having something that you can get for free is also a turn-off when it comes to donations.

Hopefully, you can get the cost down to something along the lines you quoted. If it was a commercial organisation with the traffic I expect this place generates I would normally suggest a managed VPS and you'd be likely to pay £35-£50 pcm for that. Good Luck.

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: Siliconous Skumins on September 24, 2020, 04:56:26 am
***BUMP***

So.....any news / progress on anything yet?

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: von Corax on September 24, 2020, 11:34:19 am
Nothing yet. Still waiting to hear back from proteus.

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: J. Wilhelm on September 24, 2020, 03:24:04 pm
Sorry, I haven't kept up with this thread. I got too many things happening on this side of the pond and south of the northern border :-\

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: von Corax on September 25, 2020, 11:33:54 am
Quote from: J. Wilhelm on September 24, 2020, 03:24:04 pm
Sorry, I haven't kept up with this thread. I got too many things happening on this side of the pond and south of the northern border :-\
You haven't missed much.

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: yereverluvinunclebert on September 25, 2020, 02:48:08 pm
My penn'orth re: adverts. Several of the forums that I uses regularly have a small amount of advertising space on the right hand side that only appears when listing forums posts &c. The ads are discrete and in text/pictorial form. The ad section can be minimised and an adblocker like Adblock Plus can deal with them if you are really ad-averse.

If that would subsidise the running of the forum and make it self-sufficient then I would be content with advertising appearing on BG.

An example: https://www.vbforums.com/forumdisplay.php?43-CodeBank-Visual-Basic-6-and-earlier (https://www.vbforums.com/forumdisplay.php?43-CodeBank-Visual-Basic-6-and-earlier)

Have we had a poll worded tactfully to see if members 'could' accept such ads? If asked in the right way I feel they would.

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: von Corax on September 25, 2020, 08:57:51 pm
That assumes this is a feature that can be added to the SMF forum software without massive customization of the codebase.

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: Siliconous Skumins on September 28, 2020, 12:54:46 pm
I think there is also some form of agreement with Tinkergirl (the original forum and Blog creator) that BG remains non commercial and free from adverts. I don't think it's a LEGAL document or anything, but still.... it's fair enough.

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: von Corax on September 29, 2020, 04:10:09 pm
I just heard back from proteus, and he has done nothing to steer me away from this course of action. I must now retire, meditate, and settle my nerves. Back soon.

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: yereverluvinunclebert on September 30, 2020, 12:37:45 pm
Good luck.

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: von Corax on November 10, 2020, 01:22:06 pm
On November 1, after realizing I had not yet done so, I messaged proteus to inform him that I am willing to take on the job.

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: yereverluvinunclebert on November 12, 2020, 01:01:24 am
Very Good. Let's hope something positive happens next.

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: SeVeNeVeS on November 22, 2020, 06:16:13 am
Quote from: von Corax on November 10, 2020, 01:22:06 pm
On November 1, after realizing I had not yet done so, I messaged proteus to inform him that I am willing to take on the job.
Now that is some great news! Best of luck, hope it goes smoothly.

And thanks for stepping in as Head Honcho, good sir!

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: James Harrison on November 23, 2020, 02:57:36 pm
Quote from: von Corax on November 10, 2020, 01:22:06 pm
On November 1, after realizing I had not yet done so, I messaged proteus to inform him that I am willing to take on the job.

Hail the new admin!

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: von Corax on November 23, 2020, 02:59:32 pm
Quote from: James Harrison on November 23, 2020, 02:57:36 pm
Quote from: von Corax on November 10, 2020, 01:22:06 pm
On November 1, after realizing I had not yet done so, I messaged proteus to inform him that I am willing to take on the job.

Hail the new admin!
Not yet the new admin - proteus hasn't turned over the keys yet.

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: J. Wilhelm on November 23, 2020, 06:54:51 pm
Quote from: James Harrison on November 23, 2020, 02:57:36 pm
Quote from: von Corax on November 10, 2020, 01:22:06 pm
On November 1, after realizing I had not yet done so, I messaged proteus to inform him that I am willing to take on the job.


Hail the new admin!


Men in Black II - All Hail Jay Scene (6/10) | Movieclips (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9sd10CHAP8#)

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: SeVeNeVeS on December 15, 2020, 08:37:22 am
I really hate to ask, but any updates on this? The end of the year is approaching rapidly, plus I'm a nosy curtain twitcher type of person ;D

Is the forum safe and behind the scenes Admin transfer going ahead as planned?

Thanks for keeping us informed.


--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: SeVeNeVeS on December 21, 2020, 08:11:18 am
Quote from: SeVeNeVeS on December 15, 2020, 08:37:22 am
I really hate to ask, but any updates on this? The end of the year is approaching rapidly, plus I'm a nosy curtain twitcher type of person ;D

Is the forum safe and behind the scenes Admin transfer going ahead as planned?

Thanks for keeping us informed.


(https://media1.giphy.com/media/uHEqSttWHv476/200.webp?cid=ecf05e4766cwqn271tw48cw92a4dlijpbuwtkj5hx57lr0b9&rid=200.webp)

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: von Corax on December 21, 2020, 12:27:35 pm
Still waiting to hear back from proteus.

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: SeVeNeVeS on December 21, 2020, 03:14:11 pm
Same ol' story then. : OK, Many thanks for the update good sir.

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: Ottens on December 21, 2020, 06:53:22 pm
In case there is a disruption, may I also offer my own message-board community, the Never Was Lounge (https://neverwasmag.com/lounge/)?

It's a relaunch of the Smoking Lounge, which was created in 2008.

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: J. Wilhelm on December 21, 2020, 08:01:05 pm
Quote from: Ottens on December 21, 2020, 06:53:22 pm
In case there is a disruption, may I also offer my own message-board community, the Never Was Lounge (https://neverwasmag.com/lounge/)?

It's a relaunch of the Smoking Lounge, which was created in 2008.

Thank you. That's very generous of you. But supposing some from BG go there for a visit. I've read a couple of not so nice comments on Steampunk and Steampunk followers there...How would that go?

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: Ottens on December 21, 2020, 08:33:15 pm
I can't speak for everyone, but the members I know and myself have been steampunk fans for 10+ years. We love the style. We love this movement. It's why we've volunteered so much time through the years to blogs, online magazines, printable publications, forums and social media.

That doesn't mean we can't be (self-)critical.

What has differentiated the Smoking, now Never Was, Lounge from the start is that we do allow political discussions.

There are many views on what steampunk is and what it should be. Never Was Magazine and Never Was Lounge are platforms to have those discussions.

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: J. Wilhelm on December 22, 2020, 04:40:45 am
Politics have their place, just not in this forum. And what I read at Neverwas Magazine in April / June of 2019 and July of this year was pegging the whole of Steampunk in a very narrow political category.

However, all things being equal, I do enjoy your Atlantic Sentinel. It's right on point, because rebuilding transatlantic ties is exactly what we desperately need to do in the global stage right now. There are a lot of bad actors globally who'd rather see us apart. And I will shut up now before I get myself and others in trouble.

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: J. Wilhelm on December 22, 2020, 04:44:37 am
I also think that I should probably start compiling certain resources like the Steampunk Brands list. I don't know if we should follow Prof Marvel's suggestion of using that internet archive to save the contents of brassgoggles.co.uk. I've never used it, and sadly the professor is taking a sabbatical precisely because of those types of political discussions. Maybe I can contact him directly.

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: Ottens on December 22, 2020, 11:42:46 am
Quote from: J. Wilhelm on December 22, 2020, 04:40:45 am
Politics have their place, just not in this forum.

Exactly! So that's a difference members should be aware of if they're considering joining.

I don't want to hijack this thread with a substantive debate about the politics of steampunk, but always happy to have that discussion elsewhere. (And thank you for the kind words about the Atlantic Sentinel!)

I'm also happy to host archives or resources at Never Was. We already host the archive of Kevin Steele's Steampunk Books (https://neverwasmag.com/steampunk-books/) website. Feel free to reach out at nick.ottens@neverwasmag.com.

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: E.J.MonCrieff on December 26, 2020, 02:30:47 am
Having discovered this Forum more or less by accident very recently, I'm still finding my way around.

It seems to me that the costs of running the site could be easily met by donations. In the last month I have received an e-mail from Wikipedia asking for a small donation, and made one; and I made a donation when I downloaded a copy of LibreOffice. I've made a donation to BrassGoggles before replying to this thread.

I appreciate that a great deal of excellent work has been done by volunteers in the past. It would be a shame if this were to be archived, or worse, lost completely. I've already come across a couple of old posts where a link to images can no longer be followed.

So, a vote for suggestion #2

P.S. I did my first course on information retrieval in the year after I last saw a British Rail steam locomotive (in Preston Station). They were still using punch cards then (and payroll programs ran in 1K of memory....)

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: SeVeNeVeS on January 30, 2021, 12:25:32 pm
Any News on this subject? Don't tell me, still waiting on Proteus to pull out that finger. :

Just get on with it for @&^% sake would be my message to him, IF this is going to happen and von Corax is still up for the job, do it now and stop us members constantly wondering what is going to happen to our beloved forum.

That will do, before I go into rant mode........this has been dragging on for far too long........


--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: Rockula on February 26, 2021, 09:28:22 pm
We need every Member to register at https://sparegoggles.forumotion.net/

We need an announcement to be pinned.

Anyone know if, or how, we can do that?

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: Caledonian on June 06, 2021, 01:01:16 am
Quote from: Rockula on February 26, 2021, 09:28:22 pm
We need every Member to register at https://sparegoggles.forumotion.net/

We need an announcement to be pinned.

Anyone know if, or how, we can do that?

I have tried to register for sparegoggles a few times already, but it simply won't let me, saying i need a moderator to approve

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: SeVeNeVeS on June 06, 2021, 04:51:33 am
Quote from: Caledonian on June 06, 2021, 01:01:16 am
Quote from: Rockula on February 26, 2021, 09:28:22 pm
We need every Member to register at https://sparegoggles.forumotion.net/

We need an announcement to be pinned.

Anyone know if, or how, we can do that?

I have tried to register for sparegoggles a few times already, but it simply won't let me, saying i need a moderator to approve

You will have to use a different username and e-mail than any used on previous attempts.

That should able you to register now.

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: SeVeNeVeS on July 25, 2021, 05:26:35 am
As proteus logged in on July 06, 2021, I have to ask, is anything happening where the forum is concerned, or are we still in limbo?

Sorry for the continuous badgering.

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: SeVeNeVeS on July 29, 2021, 12:49:07 pm
Quote from: SeVeNeVeS on July 25, 2021, 05:26:35 am
As proteus logged in on July 06, 2021, I have to ask, is anything happening where the forum is concerned, or are we still in limbo?

Sorry for the continuous badgering.

The lack of response tells me NO then. :

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: von Corax on July 29, 2021, 01:20:27 pm
Sorry. No, still no response from proteus.

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: SeVeNeVeS on July 29, 2021, 01:30:04 pm
Quote from: von Corax on July 29, 2021, 01:20:27 pm
Sorry. No, still no response from proteus.

Ok, thanks..........

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: James Harrison on January 18, 2022, 07:13:23 pm
Right. What the bl**dy b*******g hell was all that about for the last month or so, and how can we stop it happening again? Have the keys been handed over to somebody active here with the time to keep on top of it yet?

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: von Corax on January 18, 2022, 07:55:43 pm
I am ready and willing to take on the task, either in part or in full. It merely remains to arrange the handover.

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: James Harrison on January 18, 2022, 07:58:37 pm
Quote from: von Corax on January 18, 2022, 07:55:43 pm
I am ready and willing to take on the task, either in part or in full. It merely remains to arrange the handover.

So we are still waiting for Proteus to pass things over?

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: von Corax on January 19, 2022, 01:26:10 am
Quote from: James Harrison on January 18, 2022, 07:58:37 pm
Quote from: von Corax on January 18, 2022, 07:55:43 pm
I am ready and willing to take on the task, either in part or in full. It merely remains to arrange the handover.

So we are still waiting for Proteus to pass things over?
Pretty much, yes.

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: J. Wilhelm on January 19, 2022, 03:14:13 am
Quote from: von Corax on January 18, 2022, 07:55:43 pm
I am ready and willing to take on the task, either in part or in full. It merely remains to arrange the handover.

What if we, as Uncle Bert suggests, find the FTP backdoor? Maybe that'd facilitate raw data rescue.

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: Lazaras on January 19, 2022, 06:33:04 am
Is there any way to scrape the entire forum? Far less elegant than just going through and getting the keys for all sorts of reasons ranging from none of the login credentials being preserved all the way up to mangled data...

But.... just in case, it might be a good idea to see if anyone from archive.org can help out.

Edit:

Emailed info@archive.org the following

Long and short is this,

The forum (http://brassgoggles.co.uk/forum/ (http://brassgoggles.co.uk/forum/)) has been up since at a minimum 2006, probably a little longer? Thing is nobody on the forum can get hold of the guy who has back end access and the latest outage lasted close to a month. So everyone's on edge and while hoovering the whole works and trying to build a new forum would be inelegant and a pain in the neck for all manner of reasons, I'm trying to figure out options, so 'Hey ask the guys that make archiving things their personal business if they have any suggestions.'

Note: I am not staff or of any special importance. I've just been there for the past fifteenish years and would hate for the whole thing to get tossed in the digital woodchipper.

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: Sorontar on January 19, 2022, 11:41:28 am
Fair question (and email) Lazaras.

We could actually scrape the contents of the forum at least. The problems here are:
1) Someone would have to write the software to scrape it
2) We would have to have an archive to store the scrapped data in
3) Someone would have to parse and wrangle the scrapped data into a format that is useable.

For each of those:
1) doesn't seem to be too hard -> http://brassgoggles.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,18.msg (http://brassgoggles.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,18.msg) will get me a thread from 2007. The main issue will be working out how to get articles from multiple pages for each topic.
2) Not sure on how much data this would be. This is topic 51232 - that's a lot of topics but they won't be much data.
3) This is more effort. I am not sure what format would be best but parsing the html pages is possible. It would require things like
a) extracting metadata about the topic, like how many posts, when was it scraped, what was the number of the last post
b) extracting each post, its metadata and its content
c) identifying anything else crucial from each webpage

This is standard sort of data science stuff for text data mining from webpages, but it still is a lot of work. The bigger issue is that this is designed for a once-off scrape and it would take a while to run (once it was made). This is not something you would want to do each day, unless you had some way of knowing what new content had been added, so you don't repeat what you have done before.

So scraping is possible but not very efficient.

If we had access to the database, things would be a lot easier.

The truth is the big issue is still
1) what happened in Dec 2021 that "killed" GB?
2) what happened in Jan 2022 that brought it back?

Sorontar

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: Prof Marvel on January 20, 2022, 11:11:02 am
Quote from: Lazaras on January 19, 2022, 06:33:04 am
Is there any way to scrape the entire forum? Far less elegant than just going through and getting the keys for all sorts of reasons ranging from none of the login credentials being preserved all the way up to mangled data...

But.... just in case, it might be a good idea to see if anyone from archive.org can help out.

Edit:

Emailed info@archive.org the following

Long and short is this,

The forum (http://brassgoggles.co.uk/forum/ (http://brassgoggles.co.uk/forum/)) has been up since at a minimum 2006, probably a little longer? Thing is nobody on the forum can get hold of the guy who has back end access and the latest outage lasted close to a month. So everyone's on edge and while hoovering the whole works and trying to build a new forum would be inelegant and a pain in the neck for all manner of reasons, I'm trying to figure out options, so 'Hey ask the guys that make archiving things their personal business if they have any suggestions.'

Note: I am not staff or of any special importance. I've just been there for the past fifteenish years and would hate for the whole thing to get tossed in the digital woodchipper.


Greetings Laz...
Any reply from way back team?
Prf mumbles

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: yereverluvinunclebert on January 20, 2022, 12:06:18 pm
Hello. Welcome Back.

In my experience as a forum host there are many add-ons and extra functions that require regular administration in order to clean up temporary files, log files, .tmp files left over from captcha, processed images take up a lot of space and these need tidying.

If the site was cached, then possibly a scheduled CRON job came along and cleared that cache, freeing up the space and allowing the underlying PHP software to operate again. It seems likely that some sort of CRON task was carried out, probably removing temporary files left over from image manipulation for embedding images or similar.

If the problem was server-based rather than site-based then a server reboot might have kicked something, a process perhaps or a configuration problem and the site was raised back into life.

It could be regular backups being stored on the server using all the space. Backups are big. Perhaps a backup process created a large backup and froze with not enough space. A reboot removed the backup and the allocated space.

Any of these could have been the problem/solution. If the forum software needs free space in order to function then the site has free space again. However, although this is lovely, the same scenario is likely to occur again and possibly more frequently now.

-oOo-

If we knew the host, we could ask the host to allow us to raise tickets when such problems occur even though we are not the actual site owner. A friendly host may respond well to that and allow an admin to do some clean up as long as the work is trivial and not onerous. If the work requires payment, they might also allow another account to pay on the site's behalf. Someone here could take it on themselves to identify where the site is being hosted, open an account with them and start a conversation with the host.

The FTP details would be useful. If there is a full backup of the site somewhere then we could use that. Backups of the database might be present and then we would have the core data and would be able to restore the db elsewhere minus images and attachments. The images might be located in an image folder and then a bulk download could save those. Knowing the forum is based upon Simple Machines technology means that we could use the backups and recreate the BG forum under another domain name. I have already suggested an alternative and we NEED to buy those soon.

NO DELAY.

The vital thing is to make progress on a committee, get the members, make a quorum of like-minded chaps/ladies and then start the digging to extract the information.

There is some software called HTTRACK that allows trawling and downloading of the whole site onto someone's PC. It will trawl the whole site and extract every page and all the attachments to a folder on the user's PC. Do not underestimate how much space that will require. You are not downloading the site as it really is but the HTML representation of it, each page will be created as a static page that will not be updatable anymore. If this was the only way of extracting the old BG then the result would be a static site used for reference only. At least it would be saved.

I would expect a download like this to need gigabytes of space and it would take a long time for HTTRACK to complete. Only one person ought to run it. We don't want too much traffic on the site causing the problem again.

I suggest we create a group offline, find a tool to allow us all to meet online and then start the chat.

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: yereverluvinunclebert on January 20, 2022, 12:32:01 pm
At the bottom of each page you will see the text "Powered by SMF 1.1.20 Simple Machines"

This tells us that forum is in dire need of an upgrade as the latest stable version of SMF is 2.0.19. This really does have to be done as there are vulnerabilities that could exploit the forum and really feck up the database. All data would then be gone, forever. We are probably lucky that hasn't happened already.

Also "Page created in 0.26 seconds with 17 queries." seems to imply initially that the site isn't cached but that in truth that text would appear on a cached page too. It might be that non-unique requests (frequently accessed pages) are satisfied via a cache but I can't prove that. SMF does have cacheing built-in.

We need FTP details, a message from the site owner giving us access, that can be given to the current host or perhaps a cpanel username/password. With those latter details I could take a db backup, save it, take a full site backup, save it. We could then decide on the direction. Without the domain ownership the problem will come back to haunt us.

If we managed to take control of the cpanel (or equivalent) and we could take control of the site/data I would suggest buying the alternate domain name, redirect that to the current domain name and that would allow all the content to appear under either domain name. Then in the near future we can swap the domains over seamlessly and redirect the old domain to the new until the old finally dies. That may happen on 2022-09-24 when brassgoggles.co.uk expires.

The new domain name would take over before then and slowly we would get used to using the new version of the domain name. We would unfortunately lose some visibility in the search engines but it would be a price worth bearing to retain the old site in full.

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: Prof Marvel on January 20, 2022, 12:47:41 pm
Ooooohhhh Kaaaaayyyy

I have a bunch of old machines lying around.
and storage is now really really cheap.
like 5TB for a hundred bucks.
I have a couple terrabyets lying around somewhere in this mess .
and I need more disk anyway.

Soooo .


I am running wget as we speak, on this crippled little Win7 box with 100G free:

wget --mirror --page-requisites --convert-links --adjust-extension --compression=auto --reject-regex "/search|/rss" --no-if-modified-since --no-check-certificate http://brassgoggles.co.uk/forum/ (http://brassgoggles.co.uk/forum/)

it really is getting everyhting.
supposedly it will create the links from the forum index to the offline web pages. We will see.

I will let this run overnight and see what happens.

If it looks like it is working, I will hook up one of the terrabyte drives ( we like anime,what can i say .... especially stuff like Inuyasha, Natsume Youjinsho, Ghost in the Shell, Cowbiy Bebop... Oh and NHK Japan public TV! lots of great shows about japan in english that they let you
download ! ) to one of the more modern latops and let her rip...

Once i have the whole forum, i will then use the wayback machine tools to UPLOAD the entire forum to archive.org
then at least we can use sparegoggles to link to the wayback.

its not a solution
but its a viable workaround that doesnt take much human labor.

hope this helps

Current status -It is downloading the whole forum .
slowly, but thats ok

yhs
prof marvel

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: yereverluvinunclebert on January 20, 2022, 12:53:21 pm
It is a start, I would suggest it may take as long as a day or so. I have not used the tool you are using and the last time I did this was on older machines with slower CPUs and drives. It might be quicker and it might not fill your drive but prepare for the worst.

Send me a PM.

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: Lazaras on January 20, 2022, 05:08:43 pm
Quote from: Prof Marvel on January 20, 2022, 11:11:02 am
Greetings Laz...
Any reply from way back team?
Prf mumbles

Sadly no word yet. I suppose I should get off my duff and see if there's a discord or IRC to get in touch with them on a more direct basis by.

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: Prof Marvel on January 20, 2022, 10:16:06 pm
Greetz (as my friend and former Deutsche colleague Ingolf would say)

wget has been running for about 10 12 hours and has used less than 10 Gb 4GB... aprox 57,000 files so far
still going...

it is getting html versions of entire threads,and index files and all sorts of lovelies.
interestingly it is getting "printer" text only versions of threads as well.

more as we go.

I can see this thing running for a week or more.
I dont mind, it is only doing < 50k bytes at a time and maybe 130 kB/s

eg:

--2022-01-20 14:11:35-- http://brassgoggles.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,44355.msg994471.html (http://brassgoggles.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,44355.msg994471.html)
Reusing existing connection to brassgoggles.co.uk:80.
HTTP request sent, awaiting response... 200 OK
Length: 7551 (7.4K) [text/html]
Saving to: 'brassgoggles.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,44355.msg994471.html'

brassgoggles.co.uk/ 100%[===================>] 7.37K --.-KB/s in 0.06s

2022-01-20 14:11:36 (127 KB/s) - 'brassgoggles.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,44355.msg994471.html' saved [47705]


more later

prf mumbles

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: madamemarigold on January 20, 2022, 10:41:05 pm
Fingers crossed and ready to offer up offerings to the Air Krakens and any other toggle, bolt or geared entity that not only this site is stable but your downloading works so there is or can be a mirror site for when/if this black temporal hole happens again! Anything this deck-swabie can do more than willing to!

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: Xenos on January 20, 2022, 11:55:58 pm
Quote from: madamemarigold on January 20, 2022, 10:41:05 pm
Fingers crossed and ready to offer up offerings to the Air Krakens and any other toggle, bolt or geared entity that not only this site is stable but your downloading works so there is or can be a mirror site for when/if this black temporal hole happens again! Anything this deck-swabie can do more than willing to!

I didnae think to make an offering to my actual gods. I mean, it's a a minor thing as they go, and I'm not even sure what one I'd make an offering TO out of my pantheon. Odin? Probably Odin. Light some incense, have a shot, and say a prayer. Silly to some, but hey, stranger things have happened!

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: Prof Marvel on January 21, 2022, 01:02:41 am
Quote from: Xenos on January 20, 2022, 11:55:58 pm
Quote from: madamemarigold on January 20, 2022, 10:41:05 pm
Fingers crossed and ready to offer up offerings to the Air Krakens and any other toggle, bolt or geared entity that not only this site is stable but your downloading works so there is or can be a mirror site for when/if this black temporal hole happens again! Anything this deck-swabie can do more than willing to!

I didnae think to make an offering to my actual gods. I mean, it's a a minor thing as they go, and I'm not even sure what one I'd make an offering TO out of my pantheon. Odin? Probably Odin. Light some incense, have a shot, and say a prayer. Silly to some, but hey, stranger things have happened!

Note - the below is an acedemic discussion of various practices throughout the world, as oopsed to
a "religious" discussion.

As an amatuer anthropolysomething, studier of myths, legends, and religions, teller of traditional folktales and fairy tales, and amateur assistant apprentice keeper of traditional songs and oral history, I can certainly offer free advice!

Generall speaking offering whatever one finds precious indicates a sacrifce and is said to be appreciated .

spoiler alert - below, a number of traditions are discussed in the abstract, without any judgement , prosletizing, or preference
if one is easily offended , don't read it.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I highly advise AGAINST doing anything physical over a computer montior or keyboard, except perhaps a tish of nice incense, for entirely
practical reasons. I think we all can imagine the less harmonious outcomes from say, a Haitian type of offering on to electronics ....

yhs
prof rambles

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: Xenos on January 21, 2022, 01:15:44 am
Oh no doubt that beer and red meat is the best way to get the attention of the One-Eyed. And if I had any of that on hand directly, I'd be taking it to our alter, but as we're snowed in, we make due with what we have by. We've entire lists of what to offer which of the various gods/goddesses we serve (oddly enough, most boil down to meats, breads, and alcohols). We've been at this a goodly while.

It's really funny when you have two pagans in the same house, both with totally different pantheons. You usually keep quite a bit of different incense, meats, cheeses, chocolates (yes, chocolates), and suchlike on hand for just such occasions, but as the past few years have been rather difficult, and the past few months in particular on us, our cupboards are a bit bare of all but the most basic items.

I do thank you wholeheartedly for the reminder though!

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: Prof Marvel on January 21, 2022, 06:24:31 am
Ah My Dear Xenos -

I am always happy to blither on and on at the drop of a hat about almost anything!

I have operated on the principle "sharing what I have"

There are "preferable offerings" but in my mind it is hard to go wrong offering "what I eat".

Shinto Fox Deities for example, are said to be very fond of oranges. But they wont turn up their
noses at saki or just a rice ball. Especially if the supplicant explains "I'm sorry but this is all I have".


whether it is with corporeal entities in need, or the spirits I honor, I share equally and do not hold back
"the best portions" for myself .
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I have it on the best authority ( and several different oral histories from several different cultures to back it up)
that during hard times ANYTHING you cherish that you have to offer is seen as a "a good sacrifice" .

- Tupence from a pauper is more precious and more appreciated than a pound from a rich man

- The Lakotah have a tradition amongst the Oglala of "dog soup" .

warning - not for the sensitive
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

- many shamanistic cultures make a point of making a "spirit plate" to share a meal or feast with the spirits.

- there are specific ceremony examples among the Hopi, Utes, Zuni, Pueblo, Finnish Suomi and Japanese Ainu
(but I wont go into them), ... the point being that the traditional ceremonies are SO SIMILAIR it is remarkable...
about offering "only what they had".

A very devout man once said "I pray 5 times a day. But, if I miss the morning prayer, I pray twice in the afternoon"
ie: "the spirits are very understanding" .

yhs
prof mumbles

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: Prof Marvel on January 21, 2022, 09:47:12 am
Oh Moldy Crabapples

I REALLY went off topic there, didnt I


more on the wget:

up to 8.5 GB and 108,770 files
still growing.

I can click on any downloaded thread and see the individual page and discussion in its entireity, along with
usernames, blach blah blah. Its literaslly an html snapshot in time.
At this point, clicking on "next" sends me to to live BG page. When wget finishes up, it is "supposed to"
have linked in the appropriate links via secret magic index pixie dust.

and when its done ( in a week? a month?) I should have mine very own
snapshot copy of brasssgoggles everything!
to hold and view
and share with everybody
via the wayback!

:

prof rambles

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: J. Wilhelm on January 21, 2022, 10:12:22 pm
Quote from: Prof Marvel on January 21, 2022, 09:47:12 am
Oh Moldy Crabapples

I REALLY went off topic there, didnt I


more on the wget:

up to 8.5 GB and 108,770 files
still growing.

I can click on any downloaded thread and see the individual page and discussion in its entireity, along with
usernames, blach blah blah. Its literaslly an html snapshot in time.
At this point, clicking on "next" sends me to to live BG page. When wget finishes up, it is "supposed to"
have linked in the appropriate links via secret magic index pixie dust.

and when its done ( in a week? a month?) I should have mine very own
snapshot copy of brasssgoggles everything!
to hold and view
and share with everybody
via the wayback!

:

prof rambles

Huzzah! Good show, Prof. Marvel!

That last property of the last indexing link connecting to a live page gives me the idea that the snapshot could be used as a "kernel" for a new forum!

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: Prof Marvel on January 22, 2022, 12:09:53 am
Quote from: J. Wilhelm on January 21, 2022, 10:12:22 pm
Quote from: Prof Marvel on January 21, 2022, 09:47:12 am
Oh Moldy Crabapples

I REALLY went off topic there, didnt I


more on the wget:

up to 8.5 GB and 108,770 files
still growing.

I can click on any downloaded thread and see the individual page and discussion in its entireity, along with
usernames, blach blah blah. Its literaslly an html snapshot in time.
At this point, clicking on "next" sends me to to live BG page. When wget finishes up, it is "supposed to"
have linked in the appropriate links via secret magic index pixie dust.

and when its done ( in a week? a month?) I should have mine very own
snapshot copy of brasssgoggles everything!
to hold and view
and share with everybody
via the wayback!

:

prof rambles


Huzzah! Good show, Prof. Marvel!

That last property of the last indexing link connecting to a live page gives me the idea that the snapshot could be used as a "kernel" for a new forum!


That would seem possible! since this mirror is all html, i dont see why I couldn't edit a bunch of links to point to "the new one".

ok, about 36 hours in we have
14.3 GB (15,457,669,120 bytes)
193,288 Files, 8,069 Folders


two consecutive file examples - under local files /brassgoggles.so.uk/bg-forum/

index.php@PHPSESSID=4ec7d5220eb53a13750e0f9050ca5257&topic=5079.15 96.2 KB (98,509 bytes)
index.php@topic=104.msg183610 112 KB (114,688 bytes)

the first is this complete page of a thread
http://brassgoggles.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,5079.0.html (http://brassgoggles.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,5079.0.html)

the second is this complete page of a thread
http://brassgoggles.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,104.5925.html (http://brassgoggles.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,104.5925.html)

I am hoping that wget somehow musteriously resolves the indexes going from one page of a thread to the next...

it is also saving the "printer" or text only versions of complete threads as one long file - eg

this
index.php@action=printpage;topic=11505.0 388 KB (397,312 bytes)

is a snapshot of this thread
http://brassgoggles.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,11505.0.html (http://brassgoggles.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,11505.0.html)

but in this form
http://brassgoggles.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=printpage;topic=11505.0 (http://brassgoggles.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=printpage;topic=11505.0)

Dang, this is actually saving user profiles and the permissions too! ... which I can't see when I open it because it is not my profile
and I don't have the permissions... hmm wait. I bet it is saving the html error page when wget "ttries" to look at the permission.

if if wget doesnt link threads in a topic, it will not be hard to write a script to do so, since each thread has its own unique topic number,
followed by a "msg" number would seems to indicate thread link ie

index.php@topic=9039.msg275269

points to this

http://brassgoggles.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,9039.0 (http://brassgoggles.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,9039.0)

and I got there by manually pasting "topic,9039" onto the the base "http://brassgoggles.co.uk/forum/index.php/"
easy to extract the topic number, and replace"topic=" with "topic,"

i used to do this cfrap all the time - we got data from one DB, we were "only supposed to be able to view it" ...
but our job required USING IT
so I exttracted the operant stuff from html or whatever, looked for links, file names, etc,
and either accessed the actual file itself or re-formated the query, or just grabbed the live raw data out of the web page
and reformatted it to suit our needs - usually to feed another program or script that acted on it.

I actually have a couple patents on programs doing just that.
One guy wrote a program to "do stuff" and was distributed on servers literally around the world.
If it ran into problems, it would throw errors and the guy expected a humna to sit at a console/workstation
and resolve them real-time by hand.

That program worked really well at what it did, but was spaghetti code, he ws no longer around, and
so modifying and getting it updtaed around the globe ...it would have been a nightmare.

Soooo instead of "doing what I was told" I started taking the html error data, parsing it out with "C Shell" scripts
reformatting it into a human readable dashboafrd to make it easier to deal with....
then ran basic net diagnostics to see what the fault was and where....
Then found we had a global DB of server info that I could "read" with a human realtime query...
so I wrote another script to appear to be a command line query and got the data on the failing server...
then found I could query the company phone book to get contact poop on employees...
and I rebuilt the display to show
error / server that faulted / where it lived / who "owned maintained" by name , company phone and email, and their boss

then I built anoither backend that not reply generated a "trouble ticket" with all that crap
AND the dignositic data I logged to make it easier for him to fix it!

and emailed it to the server/network admin in question
and copied his boss if he did not reply within a couple hours.

Later I wrote another backend to put all that crap into the actual "trouble ticket system" that the compnay had.

So instead four or six of us sitting at a console all time every third day playing monket boy, we would come in at regular hours
check my trouble board, and check the emails/trouble tickets/ etc to see if the admins responded to fix it
and check my "repairs not done" board to see if it was back and we could kick off an abreviated
"redo the job" using my list of "broke but repaired servers"

THAT was very satisfying, esp since the bosses saw value and let me do what was needed. And I got a couple patents
and learned a lot about patent law. I got screwed out of one patent because IBM was pursuing something similar to one
of my tools and they filed first

It was very satisfying work ....

Later we formed a small group to turn the whole thing into a real product with the intent to sell it, but we were under the wrong
VP, and some other VP in the bay area sorta squashed it by not marketing it all. No sales == dead product.
Hellfor what we had invested in it, we could have GIVEN IT AWAY bundled in with our other product stack, as a freebie wonder tool
for our customers to use themselves but oh no, that would not fly either.

I actually had a chance to fly out on a sales tour to the PAC RIM to promote this thing, Australia, Hong Kong, Singapore, Japan...

But it started getting wierd when manager took what was supposed to be a 4-6 week trip and kept adding more and more cities...
Then he built a slide shiow presentation that claimed we were montioring and fixing over 1000 servers wroldwide...
but it was only 625. He said, "oh it will be that many by then" and I said... No I can't lie in a preso to our own peole let alone lie to
our customeres....

Sooo he said ok and got someone else to do it. They were gone for almost 10 WEEKS on a plane like every third day....
looked like hell when she finally got back....

and I moved on to another support team under a better manager who wold not lie....

And thats what we "used to" call HACKING

oops i digressed again...

more on wget and molesting modifying the links if need be later

prof omg he is rambling again .....

OOOOOohhhhhkaaayyyyyy

more messing about.

the structure is becoming clearer

so we have TOPIC number == thread in brass goggles. forum/subforum is not indicated

we have PAGE within a topic, starting at zero and incrementing by 25 by appending said number to the topic

ie
http://brassgoggles.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,9039.0.html (http://brassgoggles.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,9039.0.html)
http://brassgoggles.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,9039.25.html (http://brassgoggles.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,9039.25.html)
http://brassgoggles.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,9039.50.html (http://brassgoggles.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,9039.50.html)
http://brassgoggles.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,9039.75.html (http://brassgoggles.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,9039.75.html)
http://brassgoggles.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,9039.100.html (http://brassgoggles.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,9039.100.html)

somewhere perhaps I could obfuscate the thing to put an entire thread on one very long html page...
....

and we have individual user entries into the topic designated by "msg######" appended to the topic number

ie
http://brassgoggles.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,9039.msg168542.html (http://brassgoggles.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,9039.msg168542.html)

intersting

wget now up to
200,583 Files, 8,377 Folders
15.0 GB (16,122,040,320 bytes)


prf mumbles

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: Lazaras on January 22, 2022, 01:33:27 am
Oh.... my.

Sir i have to remove hat and salute your efforts.

And do please keep rambling. it's an instructive read. Even with that to one side it is good to document the proceedings.

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: Prof Marvel on January 22, 2022, 09:10:19 am
Quote from: Lazaras on Today at 01:33:27 am
Oh.... my.

Sir i have to remove hat and salute your efforts.


Ah my dear Laz, I appreciate your appreciation, yet you praise this humble tinkerer too much...
I am just doing... What I do! It seems to be my nature to see a problem based on a puzzle, and puzzle it out into some repeatable solution. Baling wire, duct tape and glue. And big globby ugly welds.


Quote
And do please keep rambling. it's an instructive read. Even with that to one side it is good to document the proceedings.

Oooohhhhh thank you sir! You have granted me free reign! But I do hope it will not be like inviting Count Dracul into your house!

Yhs
Prof bumbles

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: Sorontar on January 22, 2022, 11:37:59 am
Thank you Prof Marvel. You are doing exactly what I was saying we would have to do just to scrape an archive, and are doing it with far more prowess and capability than I was expecting anyone on BG to have (including myself). I tip my towering pile of hats to you.

Sorontar

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: Prof Marvel on January 22, 2022, 11:55:08 am
Quote from: Sorontar on Today at 11:37:59 am
Thank you Prof Marvel. You are doing exactly what I was saying we would have to do just to scrape an archive, and are doing it with far more prowess and capability than I was expecting anyone on BG to have (including myself). I tip my towering pile of hats to you.

Sorontar

Ah thank you my dear Sorontar ... Just don't too them too far, I would hate to be the cause of a topping hat tower of Babel ( tho I do Babel too much lol)

You folks have no idea how much just "thanks" means to me lately...

Yhs
Prof marvel

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: yereverluvinunclebert on January 22, 2022, 01:58:41 pm
The trouble is that the end result of the site trawl will most likely be rather huge and that is the problem with static pages. Each individual db extract replicates all the imagery and saves the HTML result to a discrete web-page. Where the old database consists of millions of database entries, all stored efficiently as text and references, each database entry when scraped results in a unique or potentially even a duplicate page (depending upon the navigation methods used by the site). So, possibly a million or more pages and a lot of downloading yet to go. 100gb might not be the upper limit for the complete download...

36 hours
14.3 GB (15,457,669,120 bytes)
193,288 Files, 8,069 Folders

If the forum statistics are a guide (844818 forum entries) then you are at approximately 18% of the task. Another 650,000 files will need to be generated and 46 or so gigabytes of storage - and another 4.5 days of downloading until complete. I suspect more due to cross links and duplicates.

If the resulting HTML content was pushed to a host and served as an HTML website we would be looking at a big chunk of hosting for a lot of space and that would cost us a lot of cash. I imagine it would be one of the biggest HTML websites on the web...

The end result of this exercise is only going to be a static archive for browsing, at worst possibly a redistributable package via a series of DVDs or perhaps a download but that still requires a location to host the massive archive and bandwidth/space to host it. Cash, cash, cash, all based upon size and bandwidth, certainly many times larger than a simple machines forum database.

If the wayback machine does not have BG as an archive already then it could be hosted by them but the method of its production may not fit their model.

So, please don't imagine for a moment that this download is in anyway a solution to our problems, it is one or two levels level above the worst case scenario for BrassGoggles but at least we might have something.

In the worst case scenario, I can imagine a few people having access to the massive archive and it might be downloadable on demand - but that's it.

Assuming the current scrape and download being underway and then completing successfully, the next step? - we REALLY need access to the server, anything else is just first aid and plasters on a gaping wound. Sorry to be negative but all the positivity around what is being accomplished now needs to be moderated downward. It is a beginning on a road to nowhere but that's about it.

Without access to the current database AND ownership of the old domain then we will need a NEW BrassGoggles under a new domain name. * The correct road is a new forum under a new domain name *. There is no avoiding this unless Proteus releases all the admin user/passwords AND transfers the domain name to us.

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: madamemarigold on January 22, 2022, 06:21:55 pm
I remember a site I use to visit and was a member of back when I first got a decent computer and things started popping off in the late 1990's early 2000's and when the owner died a lady made a copy of the site and it was set up (and titled?) as "Mirror Valkerie etc etc" Would that possibly work as well say for a "Mirror brass Goggles"
site as well?

(I do apologies at showing my ignorance of anything computer'ishly inclined. I am willing but am dumber than a box of rusty gears when it comes to these things.)
Give me nuts, bolts, fiber and glue and I can make due. ;D

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: yereverluvinunclebert on January 22, 2022, 10:12:31 pm
@Madame Marigold, That is what we are suggesting when building and hosting an HTML version of the site. It would be a non-editable, non modify-able version of the site. A mirror but a static one. The trouble is these static sites built upon a forum can have a million or more pages, one page potentially for each comment. So, a huge mirror site.

In addition to that 'mirror' we would need a brand new blank forum to allow people to post, edit &c unless we can extract the old database to the new. That is what I want to attempt next but that is not easy given the lack of access.

@Others - Who here knows Proteus real name/location/address? Please don't post it here if you do. Do let me know by PM instead.

If the domain name is still non-transferable from Tinkergirl then the old domain name is an eventual SPOF and we need to get the new domain name up and running as soon as possible to allow future transfer.

--------------------------------------------------Title: Re: New admin needed
Post by: Prof Marvel on January 22, 2022, 10:48:43 pm
My Dear Uncle Bert

thanks for your input.

We are all fully aware of both the size and the limitations of downloading a snapshot mirror.
As well as the ramifications.

However, the BG community has been "trying" to address this for SOME TIME.... more than 18 months ....

We have been waiting for Proteus... and waiting ... and waiting ...

Further, at last glance, the proposal was "we must form a committee"

We have waited too long, talked too much, and still no one has been able to either contact Proteus or even begin any
possible transfer of control.

after more than 2 years of tryinging, The unfortunate reality is that we are unlikely to ever get owneship/control of brassgoggles.co.uk

I agree, a "scrape" is not the ideal solution.
I "had been" trying to get BG archived to the wayback, but they do not have a good "whole web forum" solution that I can find (yet),
it is designed ... "differently"

Unfortunately we are no longer in an ideal world, and the last month long outage has kicked me in the ass up the side of the head.

there is WAY too much good stuff here to lose it.


This wget mirror is certainly Not the best solution, but better than nothing and far better than sitting on our collecting posteriors moaning about Proteus,
who could be dead as far as we know.
Not that I am complaining too much as the man is somehow paying nearly $1,000 US to keep BG afloat!
except for the outages.

Please allow me to summarize:
- Trying to obtain ownership of BG has not happened.

- we cannot seem to contact Proteus

- There is the further onus of "ooohhh we MUST honor the wishes and legacy of TinkerGirl"
(with all due respect, once she dumped gave up maintaining BG, that is moot. THAT is the nature of the WEB )

- Further, once ownership is obtained, the entire site would require extensive renovation/ data conversion
which is a fairly intensive and time consuming human effort probably resulting in considerable downtime
and personal work and grief for those involved.

- Then there is the question of who puts in the man hours and how to pay for the forum .

- AND... even with all the discussion NOTHING HAS HAPPENED.


WHAt WE HAVE IN OUR HANDS is this

- Spare goggles which is free and under "our" ( ie someone's) control
- the free tool "wget' which was designed to do unattended recursive mirrors/scrapes
...... wget saves the data in a basic html form which, while not compact, is free from ANY DB requirements
...... fancy linked lists & etc are dandy for a live database, but are way overkill for a viewable archive.
...... ALMOST NO ONE needs to update "the old stuff" ... thats why its called an archive
- the availability of the Wayback as a free, universally accessible archive
- the ability to upload to the wayback using scripts, thus making it both unattended and with few man-hours expended
- the ability to link to pages from sparegoggles to the wayback as desired
- search functions within the wayback to find stuff, which, while not ideal are at least offloaded to the wayback engines.
- no cost
- the download should complete in a few weeks
- the upload i have no idea how long, but certainly less than the 2 years we have been putzing around...

- This is not a binary state effort: any OTHER efforts can continue

- at least I am doing SOMETHING



Whilst the wget is slow, large, does create duplicate data, and is cumbersome, it takes virtually no effort on my part and is FAR better than losing it forever.

Did I mention disk is cheap? oh yes I did.

when completed, The collective wisdom, data, and etc of the the many current and former members will at least be preserved
AND ACCESSIBLE.

Just like in the static pages of a paper library.

At which point Spare goggles could remain as the live site with links to the archive as reqd.


Thus I decided,
DAMN THE TORPEDOES, FULL SPEED AHEAD!

I am Taking Action that will AT LEAST save an archive of BG with a minimum of human intervention is my task.
This does not in any way hinder or take away from any action others may care to pursue

once accomplished, I can then set about to automate an upload to the Wayback.

then I can breath easy.

The rest of you can pursue the ideal solution which may or may not ever occurr,

but at least we have saved what is here, and we have spare goggles for current usage.

AND if desired, somebody else can hack an "export/import" from the Old to The New
If they want.

Personally, I really dont see the point given the traffic and membership size we currently have,.

prf mrvl