Latest topics
» Here we go again?
by Siliconous Skumins Fri Aug 19, 2016 7:21 am

» About to go into battle
by rovingjack Thu Aug 18, 2016 10:13 am

» How was your day thread (continued)
by rovingjack Thu Aug 18, 2016 3:44 am

» Spare goggles Exploration Journal entries
by rovingjack Thu Aug 18, 2016 3:30 am

» Return to the Clocktower...
by The Bullet Sat Aug 13, 2016 10:47 am

» Is BG Down Again?
by GCCC Mon Feb 29, 2016 9:33 pm

» Things to do while Brassgoggles is down
by GCCC Mon Feb 29, 2016 9:28 pm

» Van living, fulltime RV
by rovingjack Mon Feb 29, 2016 10:36 am

» Due to High stress on the server, the site is temporarily unavailable."
by mwbaaailey Thu Nov 19, 2015 5:03 pm

» Rogues Gallery Incidental
by mwbaaailey Fri Dec 19, 2014 8:06 am

» Brass-Gogglers -
by J. Wilhelm Wed Oct 29, 2014 4:58 am

» BG down - domain expired
by oldskoolpunk Tue Oct 28, 2014 10:20 am

» Also found the way....
by The Bullet Mon Oct 27, 2014 12:20 pm

» So... anyone got something to talk about in the meantime?
by Mercury Wells Sat Oct 25, 2014 10:00 pm

» Is Brass Goggles down again?
by Argus Fairbrass Sat Jun 28, 2014 8:46 am

» Here we Go Again?
by mwbaaailey Thu May 08, 2014 11:34 pm

» We Have Reached Peak Beard!
by Captain Lyerly Sun May 04, 2014 4:23 am

» Heartbleed?
by Argus Fairbrass Thu Apr 24, 2014 4:20 am

RSS feeds


Yahoo! 
MSN 
AOL 
Netvibes 
Bloglines 


Statistics
We have 626 registered users
The newest registered user is Will Rockwell

Our users have posted a total of 7575 messages in 659 subjects

Artistic Talent : The Gifted Few?

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Artistic Talent : The Gifted Few?

Post  E. Mooncat Esq. on Sun Oct 19, 2008 5:37 pm

Before we proceed a word of warning: this post is of somewhat extensive length, so those of you who have a fashionably Limited Attention Span might as well scamper off now. Go on off you go, shoo, shoo…

To those of you who are still here: I bid you Welcome!
Have a cup of Tea, it might help you to stay awake to the end!!
Oh WTF, have a muffin or two as well!!!

I know what your thinking: 'that opening paragraph was a bit harsh'. Well maybe. But I have my reputation as a Sour Puss to maintain innit.
Wink
And so, without further ado, on to the Main Feature…
*cue the sound of a large gong as the house lights dim & the plush-if-slightly-moth-eaten curtain rises*


ARTISTIC TALENT : THE GIFTED FEW?
Some Musings on wether Artistic Ability is A Gift given to the Choosen Few, or a Latent Potential Inherant in Everyone. Including Divers Remarks on the Role of the Artist in Society, which altho' Initialy Relevant end up Wandering Down to Tangent Town & Dropping into a Bar for a Few Drinks. Or Something.



Firstly, when I say 'artistic' I mean in the broad sense of the term, not just the visual arts but Music, Literature, Performance and such…and not just 'Fine Art' but Illustration, Folk Art, Street Art and wot-not. Maybe 'creative' would be a better word.

From what I've observed the General Concensus seems to lean towards the 'Gift of the Few' Theory. Personaly I lean more towards the other view. What do you think?

Of course, there are some factors which lend weight to Gift Theory. Wether we regard such a notion as a fact, or in the interest of open-mindedness merely aknoweledge it as a possibility, we could go on to debate wether this 'gift' is down to Nature or Nurture until the cows come home, flop down in their armchairs with a weary sigh, crack open a beer and settle down in front of the TV to watch 'The X Factor' or some such tripe.

I did briefly consider enumerating the 'evidence' for the Gift Theory, but on reflection I'm not gonna bother. Firstly 'cos, as sophisticated artsy dudes, you're probably well aware of them already; and secondly 'cos like most cats I'm lazy. Far better methinks to leave that to Someone Else who takes that view. Besides, as I suspect the Gift Theory to be a Big Bag of Bobbins I probably wouldn't do it justice. If you, Dear Reader, are one of them there Someone Elses: go ahead and make your case. My opinions aren't set in stone, you might convince me.

I have to admit, part of my tendency towards the 'Latent Potential in Everyone' Theory (erk, a somewhat cumbersome title, lets refer to it henceforth as the Pook Theory. There's absoloutly no logical reason for this but it is, you must admit, a lot more compact. And it sounds kinda cute… Anyway where was I… oh yeah… my pref for the Pook Theory…) is rooted in my subjective / emotional attitudes. I have a certain distaste for elitism. Elitism leads to Heiararchies, Heiararchies lead to Established Social Order, Established Social Order leads to Authority and I have an inherant suspicion of Authority.

Which brings us round to the tricksy subject of the role of the artist in society. The work of a French sociologist called Pierre Bordieu is rather illuminating here. He came to some very interesting & perceptive conclusions about the fabric of society & how that fabric is perpetuated by means of what he refered to as field, habitus, symbolic violence and…oh, it's a subject in itself… if your interested there's a good intro to his work here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Bourdieu

Curiously enough, the person who first introduced me to this Bourdieu dude was citing his writings as a justification of artistic elites. From what I've subsequently read it seems to me that if anything his work does quite the reverse! As a sociologist he postulated the aforementioned concepts as objective observations on society, but avoided attaching value judgements therof. If you concede that sociology is a valid science then this Spockesque detachment is a commendable stance for a scientist. However, as an individual Bourdieu was a left-wing activist who used his sociological discoveries / theories to further the cause of workers rights / civil liberties. In other words to expose & undermine (public & hidden) elites (from a Political Perspective).

I don't want to get sucked into politics here, so – from an Artistic Perspective: surely one of the crucial roles of the artist in society (especialy during the last 150 years) has been to stand on the border between Society and the Wilderness and thrust a Stick into the Spokes of the Bicycle Wheel of Established Order, thus sending the smug Cyclist of Elitism flying over the metaphorical handlebars? Dada anyone?

Hmmm, time to mozzy on back to the main topic I think.
Perhaps true 'genius' is a rare & mysterious thing. But I suspect that Everyone has the Seed of Immense Creative Potential. And also the potential for a perceptive awareness that can step outside the social conditioning of Mainstream Culture (which says yer can't start a sentence with 'and' but I just did so Ha!) It's just a question of how deeply that Seed is buried; and of – if it is brought near enough to the surface to sprout – whether it is nurtured & encouraged to grow towards it's full potential. Of course, this is a subjective opinion, it doesn't lend any real weight of 'proof' to the Pook Theory. And so for years the General Concensus pooh-poohed the Pook. *narrows eyes & glowers malevolently at the General Concensus*

But then, a few years ago I heard by chance a radio prog about a big research project that some Music Dept Uni Boffins had undertaken to resolve the question: is the concept that (musical) talent is the preserve of a gifted elite a Fact or an erroneous Sociological Belief. Their methods were rather interesting & their results made some profound points about both Art and Society. So what did they discover?...

*pauses for dramatic, cliffhanger type effect*

Find out in the second Vaguely Interesting installment of 'Artistic Talent : The Gifted Few?' Or not. I mean, maybe nobody who has read this gives two hoots what they discovered. In which case it's hardly worth the trouble of me going into it innit! Or perhaps you know already. In which case ditto.
Actualy, is anyone still reading this!?? It has rather gone on a bit. In fact, all this typing is making my pawses hurt (awww, pawr ickle me)……

*Winks & vanishes in a Wisp of Egalitarianism*
Mooncat cat
http://ethereal-mooncat.deviantart.com/
avatar
E. Mooncat Esq.
powder monkey
powder monkey

Number of posts : 10
Location : England
Registration date : 2008-10-19

View user profile http://ethereal-mooncat.deviantart.com/

Back to top Go down

Re: Artistic Talent : The Gifted Few?

Post  Smaggers on Sun Oct 19, 2008 8:44 pm

I suspect it comes down to a statistical bell curve, as with so many things.
There will be a few who can achieve great things, a large number of people who, with effort and training, have the potential to achieve a good level of competance, and those who just plain can't.

I know people who literally can't clap in time, despite much effort, and I don't suppose they'll ever make great drummers.

Now this is the core issue really: competance. Visual art has become the poor relation compared to other branches of artistic achievement such as music. Technical competance has largely been divorced from "Artistic vision" or "ideas" which is strange really, for instance you don't actually need to be able to paint in order to be a "great artist". Think about it translated into terms of music and it seems faintly rediculous.

Competance is itself an interesting phenomenon. Someone who is less competant at a task is likely to greatly overrate themselves, while someone who has above-average competance will probably rate themselves as below average.

There are good cognitive reasons why this is so.

Smaggers
crewhand
crewhand

Number of posts : 20
Registration date : 2008-09-15

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Artistic Talent : The Gifted Few?

Post  Zwack on Sun Oct 19, 2008 9:35 pm

Smaggers wrote:I suspect it comes down to a statistical bell curve, as with so many things.
...

Indeed. I am actually fairly clumsy in some ways (my handwriting is terrible). I can't paint, I can draw a bit but while I can draw a specific dog and it will look like a dog I can't make it look like the dog I was drawing...

I can do reasonable leather work, but I have seen much better work by others.

I can do rustic woodwork and some of my larger pieces look quite good (two built-in book shelves look pretty good for example) but I would say that I have a long way to come.

I can't sing, have a poor sense of rhythm... Basically I don't have any artistic gift, I would put me somewhere in the lower end of that bell curve.

But that doesn't make me any the less creative. I'm sure if I was more talented I would be able to transfer my creative thoughts into actual objects a bit better.

Z.

Zwack
Comanding Officer

Number of posts : 223
Location : And introducing my wife, the wonderful Mrs Z.
Registration date : 2008-09-13

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Artistic Talent : The Gifted Few?

Post  pennydreadful on Sun Oct 19, 2008 9:35 pm

I think it is degrees of both. People can learn or be taught how to think in more creative ways and they can be taught techniques of a creative art. But there is a divide in the way some people think. There seems to be a drastically different pattern of thought, processes and ability to dream or think is very surreal ways.

It took me years to understand this. I always assumed everyone else thought, dreamed and daydreamed the way I do. So it was a bit of a revelation that some other people don't think or dream in the surreal ways or the levels that I do. I can mention something or express an idea, some people will find it amazing in some way, others will look at me like I am insane. To a certain extent people have brains that simply work in different ways. Dr. Dreadful is a musician. Music and all of the things that go with that are absolutely part of his psyche and utterly organic. I can not understand it in the way he does. I learned music all of my childhood and was moderately skilled. But it was a situation of learned technique. Our youngest has the organic understanding of music. On the other hand ideas, dreams and such that I have make Dr. Dreadful shake his head. He can not grasp some of my abstract ideas or can not understand them until they are illustrated in some manner, plans on paper, a visual representation of something.

I have also worked with people in creative fields that were utterly uncreative. I have worked with graphic designers that lack any imagination what so ever. They can follow instructions and copy techniques they learned in school, yet can't think creatively. But I have also taught many different types of people various types of art. Everyone does have a unique type of creativity, they have to be willing to attempt to tap into it, you can't force someone to be creative or think in abstract ways. I have seen people who do nothing creative in their lives discover creativity within themselves and it can be a very positive thing. Sometimes the found creativity in people like this will show even a different take that organic creative types might.

As far as artists role in society. I do think there is one, or many. What I do find frustrating is a tendency in some circles to rather abuse artists and use them for their own ends. Our community powers that be that have a power grasp on the arts community are very heavy handed in censoring art and only allowing what they approve of. This has caused the visible art in our area to be very watered down. These powers that be are business and social movers and shakers who see having an arts community in town beneficial to their business ventures and as a status symbol for the area. These people are generally not creatives themselves and see art as a means to and end rather than a real appreciation of it. One recent major arts show was mostly nature scenes and all art with any provocative or social commentary was rejected. We also had an artist have a piece of art removed from a show due to what some people saw as too inflammatory. Artist do play a role in society but are stymied in many ways.

There is also the Walmart effect. Where some people look at art compared to an item from Walmart created in mass production by slave labor. Many artists have had pricing criticized by people claiming that they could get something like it at Walmart for less. I could go on for days on what is wrong with that statement. Though there is a growing appreciation in society for art and hand made items.
avatar
pennydreadful
gunner
gunner

Number of posts : 31
Registration date : 2008-10-09

View user profile http://darkstyleblog.blogspot.com

Back to top Go down

Re: Artistic Talent : The Gifted Few?

Post  Smaggers on Mon Oct 20, 2008 3:31 pm

Zwack wrote:
Smaggers wrote:I suspect it comes down to a statistical bell curve, as with so many things.
...

Indeed. I am actually fairly clumsy in some ways (my handwriting is terrible). I can't paint, I can draw a bit but while I can draw a specific dog and it will look like a dog I can't make it look like the dog I was drawing...

I can do reasonable leather work, but I have seen much better work by others.

I can do rustic woodwork and some of my larger pieces look quite good (two built-in book shelves look pretty good for example) but I would say that I have a long way to come.

I can't sing, have a poor sense of rhythm... Basically I don't have any artistic gift, I would put me somewhere in the lower end of that bell curve.

But that doesn't make me any the less creative. I'm sure if I was more talented I would be able to transfer my creative thoughts into actual objects a bit better.

Z.

One of the reasons that people are incompetant at a task is that they dont have the mental model in place describing how that task should look done competantly. This is why poor-competance people overestimate themselves, they don't have a good internal model for that task done well, and have nothing to compare their real efforts against, they compare against a faulty model. ( Everyone knows someone who thinks they are really funny when they're _really_ not, well that's why.) They are less competant because they have a poor model, and they also overestimate themselves for the same reason.

This is also why high competance people underestimate themselves, they have a very good mental model of what the task should look like, so their internal comparison shows up all the minor faults they have made. They are competant because they have a good model, and they compare against perfection and fall short in their own estimation.

The thing is the amount of perceived Vs real competance is a staggering difference. One study showed people with a task competance of 25% would rate themselves in the mid 70s percentile, and vice versa , with high 70s competant people rating themselves in the 30s.

The good news is that training can shift you higher up the bell curve. Training puts that good model into place, which helps your competance in a task. Of course the bad news is that you'll find it just as hard to rate your own abilities, but in the other direction.


Obviously that applies to any artistic task as well. I firmly believe that anyone is capable of making themselves better in a particular art task.


As an interesting aside, the whole modern-art-money-machine absolutely depends on people not knowing what good art is, and trusting the dealers to tell them what is good. This is achieved by creating art that is difficultor impossible to judge on the usual competance scales, and any attempt to judge against these scales is immediately derided by the art establishment, who are obviously the people with the most at stake.

Smaggers
crewhand
crewhand

Number of posts : 20
Registration date : 2008-09-15

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Artistic Talent : The Gifted Few?

Post  Zwack on Mon Oct 20, 2008 4:35 pm

One of the issues I have with actual efforts is not that I don't know what to do or how to do it. But my co-ordination is such that I can mess up fine details just by being there. (From a previous discussion I might have dyspraxia, so it's not something that I could just learn to overcome).

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I suspect that we're really looking at multiple things here and lumping them together, all of which are probably distributed on their own bell curves.

There is the Creative Imagination, the ability to come up with a truly original creative idea.
There is the ability to take an original idea and work out how to make it real, how to build it.
There is the Practical Skill, the ability to actually do what you know needs to be done.

The Creative Imagination might give you a few bars of a song, but unless you can write music, sing in tune, or play an instrument it's not likely to become anything more than an idea.

As an example, one of my favourite birthday presents from my wife was really a joint effort. A few weeks before my birthday I woke up from a dream about an iron candle holder. (Don't you have strange dreams too?) It was in the shape of a dragon fly hovering over a lily pad. I sketched it for her at her request. She took the sketch and using wire, beads, a shell, and some other craft items she made a dragon fly candle holder that was very similar to my dream one. I had the original creative idea but without the work my wife put in making it it would still be nothing more than an idea.

If I had drawn up precise "plans" of the candleholder I might have been able to give them to a metalworker and have them make one. But while I could actually describe how to make such a beast I don't have any metalworking skills so I wouldn't be capable of doing that myself.

Z.

Zwack
Comanding Officer

Number of posts : 223
Location : And introducing my wife, the wonderful Mrs Z.
Registration date : 2008-09-13

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Artistic Talent : The Gifted Few?

Post  KatarinaNavane on Mon Oct 20, 2008 5:36 pm

I come from a fine arts background, currently an art student and my father is an art professor, so I'll be examining mostly that, though I have some music background as well. It seems to me that in art school there are types of people--those with talent who are willing to learn, who become quite good, those with talent who aren't willing to learn, who are annoying, those without talent who are willing to learn who become average, and those without talent who aren't willing to learn who flunk out. For the most part, it seems to me that the formal elements of art can be taught and anyone willing to put the time into it can learn them, with the exceptions of a few things like composition which requires a certain amount of innate sense, but it possibly can be learned merely by frequent exposure to great works of art. However, the conceptual aspect is more difficult, if not impossible, to teach. Some people have the sort of mind that has great ideas and some people don't. However great ideas can come to those without that sort of mind, and they'll frequently spend the rest of their lives trying fruitlessly to recreate that original bolt of lightning.
It's like, you can teach even a tone deaf person to press the piano keys in the right order, but you can't teach them to write music.
avatar
KatarinaNavane
gunner
gunner

Number of posts : 65
Location : Ohio
Registration date : 2008-09-28

View user profile http://katarinanavane.deviantart.com

Back to top Go down

Re: Artistic Talent : The Gifted Few?

Post  Zwack on Mon Oct 20, 2008 5:52 pm

KatarinaNavane wrote:
It's like, you can teach even a tone deaf person to press the piano keys in the right order, but you can't teach them to write music.

But talent in one area doesn't necessarily imply talent in another. A tone deaf person might be a great painter but is unlikely to become a great musician. That doesn't make them any the less talented, just that they have talents in one area.

Z.

Zwack
Comanding Officer

Number of posts : 223
Location : And introducing my wife, the wonderful Mrs Z.
Registration date : 2008-09-13

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Artistic Talent : The Gifted Few?

Post  Thaif on Mon Oct 20, 2008 8:52 pm

Heh, it just happens that I read an article on Creativity in science publication called "Tieteen Kuvalehti" in it's second issue of 2008, and yes I know this doesn't tell anything to those without finnish language skill, but it's good to point out sources isn't it?

Anyway, what this article said/surmised is that every person is creative, though it is often Not displayed through artistic achievement, but in everything one does. Here's a few common views on creativity: Only certain people are creative. This is false. Every person makes creative and inventive things. There is also a thought that hurry makes one more creative. This, unsupricingly, was false. Humans are more creative when they are rested and attentative(What a shock!). Also common believes are that creativity is "born" in the right lobe of the brain and that creative people are highly social. Truth is that both sides of the brain need to work in consert with one another to "produce" creative thought, and as for the high sociality: Inventive and creative people usually(not always) have fewer close friends and other social contacts.

So what is my dry lecture trying to say? Merely that talent and creativity are something that all of us have, and through self-inspection and knowledge we can try to better ourselves. It's not easy, but very rewarding.

This brings me to the subject of Education. Very often teaching in schools is very one-sided or narrow. Students aren't exactly encouraged to seek their own way of thinking and learning. This of course is not the case in every educational venue, but it is an undeniable trend. Not a big wonder then that creativity is not so visibly present. Go around a corner and it's there, but why isn't it the main exhibit?

And there were my main points. It isn't too relevant but I felt like giving my two cents. Oh and it's quite refreshing to see such a big starting post, even if it was a little...wild.
avatar
Thaif
powder monkey
powder monkey

Number of posts : 9
Age : 29
Location : Terra
Registration date : 2008-09-28

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Artistic Talent : The Gifted Few?

Post  The Kernel on Mon Oct 20, 2008 10:06 pm

Interesting topic

I am heavily involved in undergraduate and post-graduate university education (as part of my career postfolio - hence some of my somewhat vaired posts), but in a scientific discipline (hence my old BG tag line of "Nutty Scientist").
It is fascinating to see how my students often have little musical or literary appreciation and how this can be detrimental to their work and interpersonal skills.

I have been known to set relevant but non-scientific literary texts as part of their course-work to try an broaden their horizons.

It is also fascinating to look back on my development over the years, I was a nerd and a geek before those words were invented with little literatary or musical appreciation until I reached my late teens!

My current capabilities in this area have been overtaken by my very artistic mid-teenage daughter.

But with my neurophysiological hat on I must agree entirely with both Thaif and KatarinaNavane.
avatar
The Kernel
officer
officer

Number of posts : 116
Age : 52
Location : England
Registration date : 2008-09-20

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Artistic Talent : The Gifted Few?

Post  KatarinaNavane on Mon Oct 20, 2008 10:16 pm

Zwack wrote:
KatarinaNavane wrote:
It's like, you can teach even a tone deaf person to press the piano keys in the right order, but you can't teach them to write music.

But talent in one area doesn't necessarily imply talent in another. A tone deaf person might be a great painter but is unlikely to become a great musician. That doesn't make them any the less talented, just that they have talents in one area.

Z.
That is true, obvious, and irrelevant to my point, which was that some aspects of artmaking can be taught but some are innate.
avatar
KatarinaNavane
gunner
gunner

Number of posts : 65
Location : Ohio
Registration date : 2008-09-28

View user profile http://katarinanavane.deviantart.com

Back to top Go down

Re: Artistic Talent : The Gifted Few?

Post  Zwack on Tue Oct 21, 2008 6:00 am

Thaif wrote:Heh, it just happens that I read an article on Creativity in science publication called "Tieteen Kuvalehti"

Do I get bonus points for realising it was Finnish when I saw it even if I don't understand it? Smile

Z.

Zwack
Comanding Officer

Number of posts : 223
Location : And introducing my wife, the wonderful Mrs Z.
Registration date : 2008-09-13

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Artistic Talent : The Gifted Few?

Post  Smaggers on Tue Oct 21, 2008 10:58 am

I'm convinced that creative thinking can also be taught, again with the usual proviso of the bell-curve.
It's when people mix the ideas of creativity with originality that difficulties ensue, because real originality is nothing to do with creativity and is a vanishingly rare thing if it exists at all, (I've yet to see any proof of it.) The thing that most people think of as originality is just the combination of two or more existing ideas, which is where most creative thinking actually lies.

Smaggers
crewhand
crewhand

Number of posts : 20
Registration date : 2008-09-15

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Artistic Talent : The Gifted Few?

Post  Zwack on Tue Oct 21, 2008 4:25 pm

KatarinaNavane wrote:
That is true, obvious, and irrelevant to my point, which was that some aspects of artmaking can be taught but some are innate.

The earlier part of your post divided people into four quadrants. With and without talent, and willing or unwilling to learn. My point was that with and without talent is a false division. While some aspects of art making might be innate that is not the same as talent or not. I don't think that there is anyone without talent, they just have different talents.

Does someone who is musically talented have art talents? How about someone who is talented at maths? Creative writing? Does having talents in one area preclude talents in another? Is any one area more important than any other?

Z.

Zwack
Comanding Officer

Number of posts : 223
Location : And introducing my wife, the wonderful Mrs Z.
Registration date : 2008-09-13

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Artistic Talent : The Gifted Few?

Post  KatarinaNavane on Tue Oct 21, 2008 5:39 pm

Zwack wrote:
KatarinaNavane wrote:
That is true, obvious, and irrelevant to my point, which was that some aspects of artmaking can be taught but some are innate.

The earlier part of your post divided people into four quadrants. With and without talent, and willing or unwilling to learn. My point was that with and without talent is a false division. While some aspects of art making might be innate that is not the same as talent or not. I don't think that there is anyone without talent, they just have different talents.

Does someone who is musically talented have art talents? How about someone who is talented at maths? Creative writing? Does having talents in one area preclude talents in another? Is any one area more important than any other?

Z.

I was speaking within the realms solely of fine art. Each branch of art I imagine would have its own four divisions, so perhaps i should have said "with/without talent at this particular thing" and "willing/unwilling to learn this particular thing" though that is both wordy and (I thought) redundant since I had made it clear at the beginning of my post that I was talking within the realms of one particular thing.
avatar
KatarinaNavane
gunner
gunner

Number of posts : 65
Location : Ohio
Registration date : 2008-09-28

View user profile http://katarinanavane.deviantart.com

Back to top Go down

Re: Artistic Talent : The Gifted Few?

Post  Zwack on Tue Oct 21, 2008 5:46 pm

KatarinaNavane wrote:
I was speaking within the realms solely of fine art. Each branch of art I imagine would have its own four divisions, so perhaps i should have said "with/without talent at this particular thing" and "willing/unwilling to learn this particular thing" though that is both wordy and (I thought) redundant since I had made it clear at the beginning of my post that I was talking within the realms of one particular thing.

My most sincere apologies. I hadn't realised that you were talking solely within the realm of fine art.

Z.

Zwack
Comanding Officer

Number of posts : 223
Location : And introducing my wife, the wonderful Mrs Z.
Registration date : 2008-09-13

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Artistic Talent : The Gifted Few?

Post  KatarinaNavane on Tue Oct 21, 2008 6:19 pm

Zwack wrote:
KatarinaNavane wrote:
I was speaking within the realms solely of fine art. Each branch of art I imagine would have its own four divisions, so perhaps i should have said "with/without talent at this particular thing" and "willing/unwilling to learn this particular thing" though that is both wordy and (I thought) redundant since I had made it clear at the beginning of my post that I was talking within the realms of one particular thing.

My most sincere apologies. I hadn't realised that you were talking solely within the realm of fine art.

Z.

'Tis alright. I apologize if i came off as a bit touchy in any of these posts, I've been in a bad mood of late. No fault of yours.
avatar
KatarinaNavane
gunner
gunner

Number of posts : 65
Location : Ohio
Registration date : 2008-09-28

View user profile http://katarinanavane.deviantart.com

Back to top Go down

Re: Artistic Talent : The Gifted Few?

Post  VonHart on Tue Oct 21, 2008 7:53 pm

As an artist and musician, I think I'll weigh in here...

I've been involved in "Creative Problem Solving" Since grade school through programs such as "odyssey of the mind" and "destination Imagination" (we placed 13th in the world one year and I won a Rinatra Fusca Creativity award for my score to our skit). I think practice and environment have a lot to do with the way a person thinks. I'm of the nurture mentality. If someone goes through their development without stimulation or challenge, they will likely not learn that they have the ability to think differently. I suppose what I'm saying is: The ability is there in everyone, but not everyone learns that they have it. It needs to be taught and enforced. This applies to all areas which require creativity. I'm an engineer[ing student]. Many of the problems I have to solve require you to do more than look at an apply formulas. You have to look at the problems a different way than they are presented. You have to read into them more. Much of this insight comes form learning where the formulae come from.

I recently gave a lecture on fractal art and chaos to a math club at a local community college. The students there had questions like "Where did you learn this stuff?" and "how did you learn to do that?". My answers were never particular sources. I told them the truth. I learned by reading and doing, On my own, not through classes, not through instruction. If you see something you like, then do it, read it, live it. Without that will to do it on your own, you'll never progress beyond average. I think this applies the both the arts and sciences. I also think the mentality between the two is more similar than most not in the fields think.

A good scientist must view a problem and develop an innovative solution to the problem. He then has to come up with a test to prove his theory wrong. Part of science (hell, half the definition of science) is trying to prove yourself wrong. I think art has some of the same motivation. You have a idea, and if its good, you're not sure you can do it. You have to challenge yourself to try, and see if you fail. No artist I have known has started a piece which they though would be fantastic and was sure they could pull it off. No scientist who comes up with a theory is sure that it is true unless they put it to the test. The test must be to prove it false, not to prove it true. If your theory is proven false by your test, you must modify your theory. Along this same vein, if you try and fail, you have to modify your piece. No piece of art I've done has ended up exactly as I envisioned it or planned it. It's an evolutionary process.

Another thing I told the students in that math club is that history is as important as theory. You should know, and want to know, where those who's steps you're trodding have been before they were where you are. You should read their works, view their pieces, understand what was going on in their lives at the time to get an insight to where the ideas came from and what they mean. I suppose this sentiment is: Everyone has sources and inspirations. You should know who they are, and who their inspirations were. If you like a particular musician, you should find out who he liked, and so on. To use an example: If you like Led Zeppelin, but have never listened to the blues, you'll be enlightened a bit further to where Led Zeppelin's style came from when you do. You'll get an idea as to how they took those ideas and used them in a different way. As a teacher at the music school I went to breifly said: " Everyone steals licks. The difference between a great musician and decent musician is this: The great one can name who he stole them from".

Now, I do believe that people have an innate talent in a certain area. I agree with earlier posts that this is likely a virtue of the different way people's brains are wired. I also think that those talented people will likely reach a level higher than someone without that talent who has the same background and instruction. But this shouldn't stop anyone from pursuing what they enjoy. People who came into the music store I used to work in always used to say: "it's too hard." or "it's just so frustrating and it makes me mad." It's at those times where I wondered why their teachers aren't saying "relax, music isn't supposed to be stressful, it's supposed to be relaxing." It's always frustrating when you see something done, but can't do it yourself. It's insanely frustrating when you can see how something is done and understand it, but your fingers and arms don't obey your brain. But it shouldn't be. No one got it first try. As another music teacher of mine said: "you can do anything anyone else has done, if you put as much time and effort into it as they have. Don't say you can't do it unless you have."

I suppose up to this point I have only discussed what happens after the initial spark of creativity, after the idea. I think the creativity can be taught. As with art and sciences, I think that certain people have an innate talent, but I really believe that everyone has it. I just think that a lot of people have never had to deviate from the familiar. I think a lot of this goes back to our early education. How many things that you were taught in school had more that one solution? How many times were unanswered questions posed? Most everything taught in school is concrete. It can be, and has been, proven. There is a strict set of rules, and you're taught the rules and where they leave you is at a solution. This is what a bridge looks like. This is how you draw a house. What is is best because it has been for so long. Were you ever challenged to come up with something new? Hell, half the art projects we had in elementary school were to recreate something that the teacher showed us. How else can you get a grade if there is no rubric? How many times were you given an assignment and no further rules or regulations? This is one of the things I LOVED about OM and DI. They gave you a problem and a budget, and that was it. there was nothing that had to be used, and nothing that couldn't be used, within reason. It was up to you, and you had to solve the problem with your team.

Thats another thing I believe leads to creativity, working in teams. You learn a lot about different thinking processes by working with those who have them. That little insight of something you wouldn't have thought of gives you a broader base to search through for inspiration in the future, furthering you creative base.

I've gone on WAAAAYYYYY too long now, so I'll stop. I'm sure no one actually read all of that anyway.
avatar
VonHart
gunner
gunner

Number of posts : 49
Registration date : 2008-09-24

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Artistic Talent : The Gifted Few?

Post  Zwack on Wed Oct 22, 2008 2:20 am

VonHart wrote:I'm sure no one actually read all of that anyway.

I did... I agree with a lot of what you said too.

I'm not going to go into a point by point discussion though if you don't mind.

Z.

Zwack
Comanding Officer

Number of posts : 223
Location : And introducing my wife, the wonderful Mrs Z.
Registration date : 2008-09-13

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Artistic Talent : The Gifted Few?

Post  Smaggers on Wed Oct 22, 2008 3:53 pm

I would echo the working in teams thing there. The best ideas are those that occur in conversations and in the spaces between people.

If I have an idea as a result of, or during, such a discourse I'm always careful to credit everyone who fed into that. Of course it follows that I'm equally delighted if someone builds on a comment of mine and comes up with something I'd never have thought of myself.

My happiest most creative times have been of this nature.

Smaggers
crewhand
crewhand

Number of posts : 20
Registration date : 2008-09-15

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Artistic Talent : The Gifted Few?

Post  Zero on Sun Oct 26, 2008 10:01 pm

I firmly believe that the short step between creative and non-creative people is the simple guts to stand up and say "I'm an Artist!". The quality/value/worth of the Art then produced is a whole other kettle of tripe, but the ability to create comes with the desire to do so: not with some selective genetic or god given "blessing".

Zero
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Artistic Talent : The Gifted Few?

Post  Shameri on Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:28 pm

I think that the bell-curve image is a useful one, but I think it is important to remember there is no single talent for art, but rather it is a conglomeration of various skills, such as imagination, physical control of your body, intelligence, enthusiasm, and perseverance, as well as other more specific abilities like a sense of tone or colour. For example, I myself have much surplus enthusiasm, and throw myself wholeheartedly into any new project which comes my way, but without the drive to practice and hone my skills, I remain a happy ametuer at everything.
Also, people mention that it may be possible to teach creative thought; but if we ever managed to teach everyone to be more creative, then surely there would still be exactly the same shape of curve, although the mid-point would represent a higher level of creativity.
avatar
Shameri
gunner
gunner

Number of posts : 31
Location : Your imagination
Registration date : 2008-10-03

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Artistic Talent : The Gifted Few?

Post  Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

View previous topic View next topic Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum